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Thread: Phil Ivey Borgata case

  1. #27


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    Quote Originally Posted by LVBear584 View Post
    Good times! Ah, to be able to turn back time...
    In 2015 (I think) some random guy posted in this very same forum saying he had an "opportunity" and wanted to discuss it privately with someone interested in exploiting it. I guess nobody answered (I believe it was his first and only post) so he sent me a private message saying he saw some of the posts I made about shuffle tracking and sequencing (I was posting regularly back then) and told me he had an edge sorting opportunity in a double deck hand dealt blackjack. Max bet was $500 euros per spot.

    I agreed to look into it so he mailed me the cards from that casino. At first glance (and second, and third, and fourth...) I couldnt see where the flaw was, so I called him. He explained to me what to look for and I was blown away by it. At first I thought it would be impossible to detect that flaw fast and in a real casino environment, but it turns out its unbelievable what the eyes and brain are capable of doing after you train them and teach them what to look for. It only took a couple of days of training to be able to effortlessly detect the flaw at first glimpse.

    After confirming that the ASM that the casino used didnt include a "turn" (not 100% confirmed but had it from a pretty good source) I talked with 3 fellow APs and we put together a team of 6. It was the 4 of us + 2 girlfriends, one of them a former casino dealer who helped us training. The plan was of course to take all 6 seats. We assigned roles and tasks. The most challenging one was the responsability of signaling the whole team what "position" we were playing each new shuffle. There were two positions: 1 and 2. Although we sorted the cards in a predefinied way, there was a lot of movement from table to the discard tray, from the discard tray to the shuffler, and from the shuffler to the hands of the dealer. And each dealer did this differently. So although we sorted in position 1, the next shuffle the cards could come out either way, depending on how the dealer handled the cards. This guy had to follow those movements to tell us if the decks in the dealers hands where in position 1 or 2 for all of us to know how to read the cards. That was a tough job. This guy was a small asian guy and I still remember at one point of our first session turning my head to check on him and laughing my ass of (inside) after seeing how much he was sweating. Poor guy had smoke coming out of his brain haha.

    There where two guys in charge of signaling what card was coming next from the deck and I was in the last seat in charge of signaling the general strategy for each hand. We used chips positions and chip shuffling for signaling our every move and strat. It was a thing of beauty. 90% of the time we could read what the dealers hole card was and what the next card to be dealt would be. It worked like a swiss clock.

    Although we trained (maybe not as much as we should have) at first we were not coordinating anything right. At one hand one of the girls that at the moment was sitting in the last seat stood with 11 because she had a signal that the dealer was busting. We were raising all kinds of alarms, but even making all sort of mistakes we cleared a good win in just a couple of hours.

    After we got comfortable and got in rythm it was a massacre. No idea what was the edge we were playing with but it was definitely huge. After 3 days we were banned from playing blackjack.

    Even though the strategy worked and we had a really good win, Ive always regreted not preparing a better cover. In retrospect the wise thing to do would have been to make all sort of cover plays in other games, joining a poker tournament, and all that sort of stuff. That might have helped us to play a little bit longer and get away with an even bigger win. We also made the stupid mistake of winning at their 6 deck game counting and spreading, all because of a Toronto NBA playoff game, against Miami if my memory serves me right, that took two players away from us one night. We always remember Toronto. To this day I still suspect that it was that six deck play that finally got us banned rather than the double deck wins.

    The best thing is that as of november 2019 that game still exists, with the exact same cards and the exact same flaw (even easier to spot).

    Good memories from old playing days.

  2. #28


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    Quote Originally Posted by bjarg View Post
    The best thing is that as of november 2019 that game still exists, with the exact same cards and the exact same flaw (even easier to spot).
    I attempted to send you a private message, but it would not go through.

  3. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by bjarg View Post
    The best thing is that as of november 2019 that game still exists, with the exact same cards and the exact same flaw (even easier to spot).

    Good memories from old playing days.
    Congratulations. Sounds like a lot of fun & profit.

    In my days working for the industry, I became aware of a number of instances where sorts were used on baccarat, 3CP, Caribbean Stud & blackjack. I heard about a team that attempted to use sorts against MS, but I am not sure if they found any success.
    Last edited by Eliot; 07-18-2020 at 08:35 AM.
    Climate change blog: climatecasino.net

  4. #30


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    Quote Originally Posted by BJPloppy View Post
    I attempted to send you a private message, but it would not go through.
    I dont have a paid subscription, if you like you can write me at [email protected].

  5. #31


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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliot View Post
    Congratulations. Sounds like a lot of fun & profit.

    In my days working for the industry, I became aware of a number of instances where sorts were used on baccarat, 3CP, Caribbean Stud & blackjack. I heard about a team that attempted to use sorts against MS, but I am not sure if they found any success.
    Thanks, indeed it was fun. Probably the most fun I had on a trip. After we got banned we moved to another city that had a quite decent 6 deck game and were clueless so we were able to camp there for several days and book a veey decent win also.

    At first they definitely suspected we were marking cards. At one hand we had a lot of money in the table, splits, double downs, the whole thing. Im guessing we must have had near 10k. I was sitting last and when it got to my turn I made a big effort to try to see what card was coming next since I really didnt want to lose that one. Apparently it was very obvious because the dealer inmediately pulled the deck back and covered it with his hand. After that they started changing cards every half hour or so.

    This was outside of the US by the way.

  6. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by bjarg View Post
    Thanks, indeed it was fun. Probably the most fun I had on a trip. After we got banned we moved to another city that had a quite decent 6 deck game and were clueless so we were able to camp there for several days and book a veey decent win also.

    At first they definitely suspected we were marking cards. At one hand we had a lot of money in the table, splits, double downs, the whole thing. Im guessing we must have had near 10k. I was sitting last and when it got to my turn I made a big effort to try to see what card was coming next since I really didnt want to lose that one. Apparently it was very obvious because the dealer inmediately pulled the deck back and covered it with his hand. After that they started changing cards every half hour or so.

    This was outside of the US by the way.
    Thanks for the extra details and congrats on the 6D game.

    I know one case in the U.S. where the casino was sure the team was marking the cards, double deck BJ -- let them play for over a month to try and figure out what they were doing. I just happened to be on-site for an entirely different reason and solved it for them in 5 minutes. Glad it wasn't you. Then again, this was about 2010, pre-Ivey.

    One thing is for sure, pre-Ivey no one in the casino industry thought of sorting as cheating. Mostly, they were too embarrassed to even report it up the chain of command. The legacy of Ivey is that this method of AP is subject to confiscation of winnings and court battles forever more. A sad result.
    Climate change blog: climatecasino.net

  7. #33


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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliot View Post
    Thanks for the extra details and congrats on the 6D game.

    I know one case in the U.S. where the casino was sure the team was marking the cards, double deck BJ -- let them play for over a month to try and figure out what they were doing, management was absolutely certain they were marking the cards. I just happened to be on-site for an entirely different reason and solved it for them in 5 minutes. Glad it wasn't you. Then again, this was about 2010, pre-Ivey.
    What's interesting about this specific case is that although they banned us apparently they never realized what we were doing since they never changed cards. My guess is that they looked at the cards and analyzed them but were not able to detect the flaw. In fact I have no idea how the guy that told me about the game was able to see it.

    What's even more interesting is that there must be dozens or even hundreds of casinos from all over the world buying cards from that same factory with the exact same flaw.

  8. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by bjarg View Post
    What's interesting about this specific case is that although they banned us apparently they never realized what we were doing since they never changed cards. My guess is that they looked at the cards and analyzed them but were not able to detect the flaw. In fact I have no idea how the guy that told me about the game was able to see it.

    What's even more interesting is that there must be dozens or even hundreds of casinos from all over the world buying cards from that same factory with the exact same flaw.
    Smarter casinos let players continue to play until they figure it out. Otherwise, the team will just train another group to come in and do the same thing, rinse and repeat.

    Did you ever watch my video on card defects? There are so many different ways cards are flawed.

    Just in case ...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lD3E4FJblfA
    Climate change blog: climatecasino.net

  9. #35


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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliot View Post
    One thing is for sure, pre-Ivey no one in the casino industry thought of sorting as cheating. Mostly, they were too embarrassed to even report it up the chain of command. The legacy of Ivey is that this method of AP is subject to confiscation of winnings and court battles forever more. A sad result.
    Fortunately this didnt happen to us and we had no problemas cashing our winnings. In fact when the manager came to talk to me he was very nice about it. He even made it clear he knew we were not cheating and even congratulated us. Very nice guy.

  10. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by bjarg View Post
    Fortunately this didnt happen to us and we had no problemas cashing our winnings. In fact when the manager came to talk to me he was very nice about it. He even made it clear he knew we were not cheating and even congratulated us. Very nice guy.
    I'm guessing your team didn't win $9M Again, congratulations.
    Climate change blog: climatecasino.net

  11. #37


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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliot View Post
    Smarter casinos let players continue to play until they figure it out. Otherwise, the team will just train another group to come in and do the same thing, rinse and repeat.
    I agree, but in retrospect I ultimately blame myself for not being able to play longer. There were two things we could have done better:

    1) train more to be able to play the strategy effortlesly without raising any suspicion right from the beggining.

    2) play other games aggresively also. The edge we had at blackjack was so big we could definitely afford some heavy -EV camo. Im sure the fact that we were only playing blackjack is what got us banned so quickly.

    Although we won and we were able to execute our game plan, Ive always thought about this trip as more of a failed attempt, since Im sure we could have won A LOT more if we would have done those two things differently.

  12. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by bjarg View Post
    I agree, but in retrospect I ultimately blame myself for not being able to play longer. There were two things we could have done better:

    1) train more to be able to play the strategy effortlesly without raising any suspicion right from the beggining.

    2) play other games aggresively also. The edge we had at blackjack was so big we could definitely afford some heavy -EV camo. Im sure the fact that we were only playing blackjack is what got us banned so quickly.

    Although we won and we were able to execute our game plan, Ive always thought about this trip as more of a failed attempt, since Im sure we could have won A LOT more if we would have done those two things differently.
    Yes and yes. But the excitement of getting out there and trying it must have been huge, so impatience is understandable.

    For (2), Ivey screwed up for exactly the same reason, so did Don Johnson. It's not like you're not in good company here.
    Climate change blog: climatecasino.net

  13. #39


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    Quote Originally Posted by bjarg View Post
    if you like you can write me
    Thanks.

    Done.

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