beatable side bet?

[Purplemoon]

Thanks for the replies.

Dog Hand, that was the information I was looking for, thanks very much for taking the time. My subscription ran out so I can't access that post but I'm going to re-subscribe and explore the math.

Three, I hadn't considered they would use the SB to peg me. My last outing had a ploppy stand up and walk off due to my 12 vs 4 index play, berating me for not knowing how to play, the other players kindly suggested I stand in future. I tend to play up to this behaviour claiming I use my intuition. The next round the dealer actually paused on my hard 17 and wanted me to confirm my play...., I assume he thought I was a ploppy not a counter, either that or he was being ironic. I figured I could do something similar in the future with certain side bets i.e allow myself to play them occasionally due to "peer pressure"...

As a rookie (100 hours played) I'm wondering about the chain of command in the casino. Does the dealer or pit boss alert surveillance? or is it a two-way street? I played far more aggressively after being classed as a ploppy by the dealer, however this may have been presumptuous behaviour.

[Three]

Three, I hadn't considered they would use the SB to peg me.

Some places absolutely do this. Others don't seem to do it.

Does the dealer or pit boss alert surveillance?

Usually dealers don't care if you count, especially if you are not a stiff. But some do. Most just want to get paid and know a lot of their pay comes from players and don't want to suffer a pay cut to help the casino that pays them less than minimum wage. They follow procedures. The way they follow procedures can tell you a lot. like is the cheques play call a frantic scream across the pit or made in a more under their breath kind of thing. Not to sound like a racist but asian women dealers seem to align with the casino a lot more than most dealers. I think it may be a cultural thing where traditional asian women feel like they are sort of indentured to a master and they sign the casino that role. The more americanized female asian dealers seem to be more like the typical dealers.

The Floor usually alerts the pit boss, or surveillance, or surveillance alerts the Floor. If suddenly the Floor ignores things at your table that should cause some interest he may have gotten the call that surveillance is watching you or made the call to get surveillance to watch you and is purposely trying to make you drop your guard by making you feel like they aren't paying an attention to you. It is always safest to assume you have an audience, especially when it looks like nobody is paying any attention to what should get their attention.

I played far more aggressively after being classed as a ploppy by the dealer, however this may have been presumptuous behaviour.

I hear dealers whisper I think this guy is counting on rare occasions. The Floor usually hangs around for a while and decides for themselves. They always have plenty of reason to think I am not counting and let me play. Sometimes they will try something that should rattle counters to see your reaction, like cutting very fat. If you react like a counter you confirm their suspicions. If you act like nothing changed and keep playing you may see things change back. If things don't change back don't stay too much longer because they are trying to see if they can get you to leave voluntarily rather than act against you. They will act if you force the issue. If they feel they can train you on when they feel they have had a shot at your money and don't want you to play anymore they may tolerate you for a long time. Eventually you will learn when to leave before they start hinting you have overstayed your welcome. Casinos like drop and counters contribute a lot to drop. Counters also can help get people to play tables they wouldn't play if they were empty. Once tables get crowded they probably would rather have someone else in the seat. But some casinos are very intolerant and will back off a bunch of ploppies just to make sure no counters get to play. It is best to just avoid such places when they are identified. The smart casinos know how to use counters to help them with certain goals. If they can train you to be a counter that does that without overstaying your welcome or getting greedy they will have a sort of symbiotic relationship with you. You get to play for a while and contribute to their drop while giving them a shot at your money and helping empty tables fill up with players. Once they feel they have used you for what suits them they want you to leave. If you do and don't get greedy causing them to worry you being there might wreck their shift, day, or week many casinos will tolerate you within the parameters they set.

[21forme]

Usually dealers don't care if you count,

In my experience, Nevada (LV, Reno and Tahoe) is an exception to this. Dealers are very much protective for the house, often pref shuffling on their own

[Three]

In my experience, Nevada (LV, Reno and Tahoe) is an exception to this. Dealers are very much protective for the house, often pref shuffling on their own

Are you a stiff or do they shuffle away their tips voluntarily? I know many things are regional. I usually don't stop in Nevada to play when heading West to play. My comments are more based on play East of the Mississippi. It has been a long time since what is offered in Nevada seemed worth the trip to me.

[21forme]

Are you a stiff or do they shuffle away their tips voluntarily?

Both. As a result of their actions, I never tip in NV, but their behavior came first.

Example - had one over the summer at PH Tahoe, playing DD in HL at a $100 table. There was another player at the table betting chunky black and tipping generously. I came along, sat down and played one black chip the first 2 "shoes" as the count went nowhere. Never sat out or raised my bet. Third shoe, as soon as I parlayed a second chip to my bet, he shuffled, a little less than one deck in. I got up and left.

[BoSox]

Not to sound like a racist but asian women dealers seem to align with the casino a lot more than most dealers. I think it may be a cultural thing where traditional asian women feel like they are sort of indentured to a master and they sign the casino that role.

Are you sure you do not sound like a racist?

[Three]

Are you sure you do not sound like a racist?

No I am not but there are cultural differences that anyone that is observant would notice within every group. I know what to expect. I am pleased when I am pleasantly surprised. If you don't know about different cultures you just aren't worldly enough. Once a generation removed from their country of heritage many become americanized and adopt more of our culture. Part of the strength of diversity is understanding and respecting other cultures. Acting like you don't see and embrace cultural differences is disrespectful of their culture and heritage. In many traditional asian cultures women have a different role than they have in our culture. I can understand and respect that. When I get an Asian female dealer that barely speaks English, as is very common in many casinos around here, I know what to expect to happen most of the time. They seem very focused on serving the casino at the expense of serving their customers to earn tips. Most dealers understand that tips are based on serving their customers and know that is where most of their pay comes from and act accordingly. I will leave it to the Asian ladies here to explain what the culture they came from and may still choose to embrace is like. I respect their culture and their choice. I don't deny it or judge it.

[BoSox]

Part of the strength of diversity is understanding and respecting other cultures. Acting like you don't see and embrace cultural differences is disrespectful of their culture and heritage. In many traditional asian cultures women have a different role than they have in our culture. I can understand and respect that. When I get an Asian female dealer that barely speaks English, as is very common in many casinos around here, I know what to expect to happen most of the time. They seem very focused on serving the casino at the expense of serving their customers to earn tips.

Then those dealers go through a short extension of on the job training by Three himself. Upon completion of training, these dealers turn into something like the following that he explained earlier in the week when someone attempts to Wong in on his table.

"

The dealer has to take their action for them to come in. Many will just push their bet back and keep dealing saying he is going to finish the shoe alone. They know it is worth their while to do so. If the person complains a good dealer lammers up the empty spots saying they forgot to reserve them when the people asked upon leaving. It really pays to take care of the dealers. Of course that doesn't always happen but the dealers I frequent do lots of little things to help me out, especially if they know the player trying to come in is a stiff. I have ploppies that will lammer up spots for me as well. They join at the beginning of the next shoe. It is a freeroll for them. If things go well I take care of them. If not they always want to play my side bet as compensation. Apparently I am lucky at the side bets. I just think it is selective memory on their part."

[Three]

Then those dealers go through a short extension of on the job training by Three himself. Upon completion of training, these dealers turn into something like the following that he explained earlier in the week when someone attempts to Wong in on his table.

You can't train every dealer. But you don't have to play at tables with dealers you don't like and can choose to play at tables with dealers you like. So you can close to do most of your play with dealers that make playing as pleasant as possible. If you haven't develop table skills to work dealers and ploppies you are leaving a lot of EV on the table. I know of people that swear they were being cheated by the dealer. After losing every hand for 10 minutes one put out a tip for the dealer and won. He jokingly commented that if he knew that all he had to do was tip to win he would tip every hand. The dealer leans in a whispers that he had better hurry because his shift is over in 15 minutes. He tipped every round and won every hand for the rest of his shift. The guy was obviously a mechanic and was making the stiffs lose so he could let the tippers win and have things even out while lining his pocket.

Most dealers are in it for themselves and few see anything good happening to them from helping the house. Most dealers hate their employer. Why should they want to help the casino? They get nothing out of it. Giving players what makes them happy can result in extra money in their pocket. Most dealers try to figure out how to make each player want to tip. If they can figure that out they will give you what they are comfortable giving you as long as they know they will get some. This is true with every player sitting at the table. All most dealers want is to hit that trigger that will make any of them tip. One of my favorite dealers leaned in and apologized for cutting as thick as he did explaining the big brass were in the casino today so that is the best he could do. I was amused because the cut was still so much better than any other dealer that I didn't even think anything was wrong. He knew what he could get away with and that I would tip small but regular for being made a happy camper. And if I won a lot I would also give a decent tip upon leaving. He really wanted that bigger tip and did what he could to make it more likely I would be in a position to do it. The Floor always thanked me for taking care of his boys. Most of the suits started as dealers and are much more tolerant of tippers and quick to act against stiffs.

I was playing and getting cuts so shitty I was thinking of waiting for the next shift to play another shoe. Then the dealer that had been cutting so bad cut real thin one time. I put a tip out right away. Then the next shoe was cut real thin. I put a tip out right away again. In the middle of the shoe the relief dealer that had been cutting even worse came in. The dealer whispered into the reliefs ear. That relief dealer also cut real thin. From that point on they cut thin every time I played with either of them. You can train a dog with treats because he wants that treat. Most dealers are almost as smart as the dog so you should be able to train them with treats as well. I never tried bringing a clicker to the table to click when they did what I wanted them to do right before I put out a tip. LoL

I don't have a problem being a stiff for a dealer that is untrainable. But giving the dealer a taste of the extra EV they allow me to have is a wise move if it ensures the EV. I had a dealer with a bad habit of looking for BJ before asking for insurance. It was obvious by the way insurance was asked for whether there was a T in the hole. A few others pulled cards prematurely and would get a look at them. They obviously did this to hustle tips by helping players win. You just had to know how to get the information. I asked one guy what the card was and he said he can't tell me. I asked if he could give me a hint. He said it looks just like that card while pointing at my 3. The dealer had a 6 up so I hit my 13. The dealer flipped a T and hit an 8 to bust what would have been a made 19. One dealer would make misdeals ad when a ploppy would point it out prematurely he would say don't say anything yet. Let me finish dealing the cards so you get a better option. With no skill for working a dealer and their eccentricities I would have been way behind where I usually am. Why wouldn't I choose to play at one of my favorite dealers tables rather than play where the cut sucks and the dealers seem to be hoping I will lose and doing what they can to make sure it happens.

[21forme]

Are you sure you do not sound like a racist?

There's a difference between racism and stating an observation.

[BoSox]

There's a difference between racism and stating an observation.

Depends upon to whom you are talking, as there is a very fine line in today's times. Either way, I only asked a question.

[21forme]

Depends upon to whom you are talking, as there is a very fine line in today's times. Either way, I only asked a question.

There are a lot of people, who if they don't like the conclusion or facts, they call it racism. Doesn't mean it is.