Jurisdictions where backoffs are not allowed

[Exoter175]

Ok that's different. I mentioned in my original post that they could place a cap on table max. But they cannot single one person out and tell them they are flat bet. That's what I mean. They can't flat bet someone in the traditional sense.

No, they can't just single you as a person out for anything, but they can make changes to the games on the fly to discourage you playing any further. The legality of it, and why Missouri put this through legislature, was just to make sure that all players are treated equally at the table, to encourage all people to play (including counters), and keep unnecessary actions the casinos might take, out of their hands to keep revenue flowing in.

As an example, the state of Missouri makes zero dollars from a resident who is barred from, say, St Charles Ameristar, Further, casinos often share information, so if a counter were barred from Ameristar in St. Charles, that information might spread down the street to Hollywood, and then to Lumierre, and so forth down to river city. All of a sudden, the state makes zero dollars from that resident, and that resident must go out of state or at least across the state for their action. Lets be honest, they'll slip into Illinois. The state doesn't like when players get barred from casinos in Missouri, specifically because at the two main "hubs" of casinos in Missouri (KC and STL) both have rivals across the border. Kansas state has indian casinos and a few state casinos, newest being Hollywood in KCK, with which KCMO casinos compete directly with. In STL, on the Illinois side, they might compete with Argosy Alton or Casino Queen, and then all of the bigger Illinois casinos centers like Aurora, Joliet, Chicago Proper, Hammond,IN. You get the picture. The state thinks that if you find yourself a counter, giving him a shitty game wherever he goes on the property will dissuade him enough from doing it there again, and perhaps push him towards other means of play, like slots, VP, etc. The state makes revenue on all of those games, so it makes no sense to ban them from the property in the state's eyes. In fact, they encourage it, because they know all blackjack players at some point, if they are serious enough, will learn how to count in some form, and that just increases their play, and the casino hopes they aren't truly good enough to present enough of an impact. In doing so, however, Missouri allowed for several "supported counter-measures" that are perfectly legal within the state, so long as the action is unilateral to all players at the table.

[Ryemo]

I agree, Exoter175. I think we initially had some miscommunication due to interpreting the terminology differently.

[All Clear]

Yes in MO. They can, legally, flat bet you by flat betting the entire table, and if you're playing solo, you're the only one affected.

Legally speaking, they cannot place a counter-measure against a single player, it must be done unilaterally for the entire table. In this case, the PB will walk over and inform the table that during the remainder of their play at the table, they are not allowed to raise their bets. Further, they will go and change the placard with the minimums on it to defense the remark.

Interesting. Though I have never been to MO, at one store in Atlantic City, I sat down to play and presented my card. I had been flagged for counting (and half-shoed) two and a half years prior, and was hoping they "forgot" about me, and I could play rated again. 3 minutes later, a pit boss or floor person walks over, apologizes to the four of us at the table, and tells us the min max for the table has to be changed from 10 - 1000, to 10 - 10. But everyone who was in the last shoe (everyone other than me) is grandfathered in, and can bet above $10.

Perhaps it is that they couldn't restrict me alone, but by restricting the whole table, other than people who came within the last 3 minutes (me only), they are in effect doing the same thing. A note that this store doesn't currently exist- the building is closed after it went into bankruptcy.

[blueman]

Well, let me clarify. If you're in a casino to which you aren't already banned from elsewhere, you cannot be banned for playing blackjack in Missouri/New Jersey. If, say, you were banned at Harrahs Metropolis, and it was a property-wide ban, you'll be banned from Harrahs North Kansas City.

They are allowed, however, to employ counter-measures against you. Flat betting you, raising table minimums, shuffling every hand, half shoeing you, and so forth, but they can't physically remove you from the table, stop your play, or ask you to leave because of it. They will, however, keep a close eye on you for any infraction they can come up with, to ban you, so keep a cool head and don't say a bad word!



This, I know of one counter who was banned from a property in Missouri for "destroying a bathroom fixture", even though they couldn't actually prove it in a court of law since there are no cameras in the bathrooms.

I thought that even property wide bans were not a thing, according to nersesian...

He said that you cannot be banned from a property in other states from another property, or somethin like this.

Can sometime clarify?

[ZenMaster_Flash]

"I thought that even property wide bans were not a thing, according to nersesian...

He said that you cannot be banned from a property in other states from another property ... "

All that I can add is that I have been 86'd from casinos
after being trespassed by sister properties far far away.

[Exoter175]

I agree, Exoter175. I think we initially had some miscommunication due to interpreting the terminology differently.

I think you're right Ryemo. All good!

Interesting. Though I have never been to MO, at one store in Atlantic City, I sat down to play and presented my card. I had been flagged for counting (and half-shoed) two and a half years prior, and was hoping they "forgot" about me, and I could play rated again. 3 minutes later, a pit boss or floor person walks over, apologizes to the four of us at the table, and tells us the min max for the table has to be changed from 10 - 1000, to 10 - 10. But everyone who was in the last shoe (everyone other than me) is grandfathered in, and can bet above $10.

Perhaps it is that they couldn't restrict me alone, but by restricting the whole table, other than people who came within the last 3 minutes (me only), they are in effect doing the same thing. A note that this store doesn't currently exist- the building is closed after it went into bankruptcy.

Yeah, there's a kind of grey area there, as the state gambling agency tends to defer to the casino on all "grandfathered" situations. Missouri is incredibly strict on this, and this won't happen to you there, but I imagine in AC is pretty lax on letting their casinos operate within the grey areas of the law there.

I thought that even property wide bans were not a thing, according to nersesian...

He said that you cannot be banned from a property in other states from another property, or somethin like this.

Can sometime clarify?

That was inherently wrong, not because Nersesian was wrong, but because the interpretation of what he said on a specific scenario was wrong.

You can be banned, at a moments notice for anything in any casino nationwide, with perhaps an exception made to casinos with a state interest involved. That means that if CET corporate doesn't like you, they have the right to ban you from all properties for which they are in control of. They can't, however, ban you from a CET managed property, owned by someone else.

Example. Lets say CET owns Casinos A and B, but manages Casino C. You get caught counting in Casino A, they don't like the cut of your jib, boom, Banned from all CET owned properties, which for this argument, is Casinos A and B. Casino C, however, can have your information about what happened and ultimately might kick you out, but they can't ultimately make that decision at Casino C based on the events of Casino A, since they only manage it, and not own it. Ultimately what happens is they call up ownership, ownership says "go for it" and you're banned, regardless.

All that I can add is that I have been 86'd from casinos
after being trespassed by sister properties far far away.

This, basically. They can literally come up to you and say "your smell is offensive to our customers, we'd ask that you'd please leave the premises" and they could get away with that legally, however unpopular. You don't have to be caught counting to get kicked out. I'm a shining example of this.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

"You don't have to be caught counting to get kicked out."

Any casino can have you ejected / evicted / trespassed WITHOUT giving cause. Garlic breath suffices.

That statement, while true, may leave the casino owner subject to claims of Civil Rights violations, etc.

[Freightman]

Any casino can have you ejected / evicted / trespassed WITHOUT giving cause. Garlic breath suffices.

That statement, while true, may leave the casino owner subject to claims of Civil Rights violations, etc.

I recall complaint about the buffet service and quality. I was escorted shortly thereafter. Excuses are easily manufactured.

[Three]

Are there other jurisdictions where they can't force a card counter to stop playing?

Hopefully you realize they made it so you would no longer play unless you were an idiot.

That's because you were only sent that certified letter for that property, and not a property-wide ban. You skipped over that important qualification likely because I worded it so poorly.

Narsesian (sorry if I botched the spelling) said that a ban can't expend over state lines or to properties that had a slightly different ownership in the same state.

[Exoter175]

Hopefully you realize they made it so you would no longer play unless you were an idiot.
Narsesian (sorry if I botched the spelling) said that a ban can't expend over state lines or to properties that had a slightly different ownership in the same state.

I'm aware of what Nersesian said, and I've stated it already that people are taking the commentary out of context. It isn't about "slightly different ownership", its about wholly different ownership. If Harrahs NKC and Harrahs Metropolis have wholly different ownership but share the same name, my ban from NKC won't go into affect at Metropolis. However, there's nothing stopping NKC from sending Metropolis that info, and metropolis banning me themselves.

The basic context of nersesians' verdict is that, if Casino A and Casino B share the same name, but are owned by two different companies, a "property-wide" ban at one isn't "legal" at the other, because the two have different ownership completely.

It wasn't that they couldn't extend past state lines or in the same state if they DID have same ownership, they very much can do that. On top of this, If the casino doesn't actually own the rights to the property, and instead leases it, the landowner's rights supersede the "managements" rights in private party law, within reason.

[Meistro123]

They will not ban you in Quebec for card counting. The casinos are owned and operated by the government and either because of policy or law they do not ban counters. They will impose some counter measures, usually half shoeing but I was also once informed @ Lac Du Lamay (in Gatineau Quebec formerly known as Hull across the bridge from Ottawa Ontario) that if I did not start a shoe at the beginning I was to be flat bet to the table minimum. But this was never really enforced on me anyway. The half shoeing isn't really that effective since you can just jump from table to table and usually at least one dealer forgets not to half shoe but the games aren't great. Usually it is 8 deck, H17, DAS, DA2 but there are also 6 deck S17 games in high limit w/ $50 or $25 minimum except for Montreal which has only 8 deck H17 games. Actually Montreal also has the 6 deck S17 games but they are $100 minimum and not open to the general public.

One good thing about Montreal is they do have the lucky lady side bet with the generous double deck pay table on the 8 deck game. So that is pretty nice. And dealer errors are NEVER caught by the eye in the sky.