Almost Backed Off, I Think

[ico2525]

This is a regular occurrence at this one particular casino. I don't play for a living, so I have less to sweat about. I do carry myself well. I'm quiet and have great manners. The other players enjoy me. I'm happy to let them play the side bet on my spot, etc. Overall, it's very pleasant because I play rated, and still get comps without any push back. At a sister property of the one I have in mind, one floor will tell another floor to watch me. The suit is 3 feet from the table and goes, "He's spreading!" Just not the kind of heat I'm used to.

The real reason for my post is I'm very interested in casinos that employ the countermeasure of cutting the shoe in half instead of backing you off. I've had dealers preferential shuffle on single or double deck games - OK that I get. Notifying every dealer to cut the shoe in half instead of telling me to play slots seems like such an unusual management strategy. I can only infer at this point that it is word from the big boss not to back anyone off. Maybe this would change if my spread was something like $25 - 3x $2,500.

Lol I have to add one last thing. This property I'm speaking of isn't huge, but it has 3 or 4 distinct pits excluding HL, one of which is well out of view of the others. If I move, I make at least one suit jog over to the other pit to have a conversation with that supervisor, use the phone call upstairs; again, circus lol. They just take it like a champ.

[Three]

The real reason for my post is I'm very interested in casinos that employ the countermeasure of cutting the shoe in half instead of backing you off. I've had dealers preferential shuffle on single or double deck games - OK that I get. Notifying every dealer to cut the shoe in half instead of telling me to play slots seems like such an unusual management strategy. I can only infer at this point that it is word from the big boss not to back anyone off. Maybe this would change if my spread was something like $25 - 3x $2,500.

They are making it so your results are random and it isn't worth playing. Trying to make you choose not to play. You should leave at this point (in fact you should have read the signs and left long before this point) and learn to play so they don't take countermeasures against you. Believe me the more stubborn you are about playing anyway the worse the conditions you will be playing. Ideally you want to play right up to the point where they would take countermeasures. Once they have taken them once you can't get away with pushing the envelope that far again. They are telling you nicely it is time to go. There are a lot of ways they do this when you do not push the envelope too far. Pen may get a hair worse. They may give you the hairy eyeball. They make thinly or not so thinly veiled comments. More dealer errors may happen against you and you don't get the usual nice options. You should always politely take their hint so they welcome you back. If they know you are not going to overstay your welcome they are far less likely to act against you. If you don't heed the polite messages there are not very polite ones like you describe or worse that they will use.

[Three]

Lol I have to add one last thing. This property I'm speaking of isn't huge, but it has 3 or 4 distinct pits excluding HL, one of which is well out of view of the others. If I move, I make at least one suit jog over to the other pit to have a conversation with that supervisor, use the phone call upstairs; again, circus lol. They just take it like a champ.

I hope from my previous posts you realize you have already screwed up royally and try not to end up at this point at any other casinos.

[stopgambling]

A lot of comments and advices are good and solid but about your 3d count that everybody can not picked off that is a bit too much. Your system could be very strong and all but not to be picked off by computer analysis ,it would be very hard to believe. Just pulling your leg , if i am as dedicated and gifted as you maybe i can learn it and be "T-FOUR" .

[stopgambling]

Actually it was Chris Angel . LOL.

[Zach Black]

I don't know if it was end of his shift or not.

I try to avoid shift changes. Playing through the shift change exposes your face to two crews. The shift manager usually starts an hour before the dealer shift change and gets pass on comments. EITS shift changes also have a similar offset from the dealers. I like to show up an hour after the dealer shift change. If I'm not ready to leave, shift change is good time for a meal.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

"Spread is generally looked at as the off the top bet to max bet."

This is true of some places, but many of the better stores,
(e.g. MGM stores will have a pit critter recording your bets
every 10 or 15 minutes), for a fairly accurate measure on
your betting ramp.

+1 KUDOS to Tthree for overall excellent beginner's advice.

[Jabberwocky]

This is true of some places, but many of the better stores,
(e.g. MGM stores will have a pit critter recording your bets
every 10 or 15 minutes), for a fairly accurate measure on
your betting ramp.

+1 KUDOS to Tthree for overall excellent beginner's advice.

The AP mantra should be; "tolerance and pen, tolerance and pen." Little else matters.

[stopgambling]

You missed the point. The game isn't fooling them it is allowing them to be comfortable allowing you to play. I don't play in Sweat Vegas. Where I play if they act against you you forced them to. Your bets and plays were too predictable. You played outside their tolerance level for win, time played, frequency of visits and/or bet spread/top bet. Why is everything predictable? Because everyone uses the same type of linear approach to using information gathered.

How do you not fall into these tolerance issues:
1) Win: Don't be greedy. Win small enough amounts that they don't have to worry about you. You will have some inevitable large wins and losses within one shoe but leave right after.

2) Time Played: Be conscious of how much you are giving yourself away when you play. Constantly changing bets or betting with the way the count changed for that round leaves little grey area for them to look the other way. You know if the previous round of cards removed would have a bet change in their eyes and in what direction. You know the cost of betting improperly. Choose to bet improperly when the cost is minimal. You can often opposition bet at very little cost. Be conscious of how runs are affecting you. If on a losing run you may consider lowering your bet. Perhaps you are losing because your count's advantage assessment is off. It is a deck composition where you bet and play poorly (likewise for winning runs but be careful to not over bet the advantage estimate by much). This looks natural to the pit. If going to 2 hands when you want to brings heat, do it when it looks stupid to do so based on the last round of cards removed. You know the moves that bring heat and can tailor play to at minimal cost make you look stupid. The more info you gather the more intelligent your apparently stupid moves can be. Anyway the point is how long you can play depends on how much you have spread and how stupid you make yourself look. Looking stupid with big bets out is more costly than looking stupid with little bets out generally speaking but you should understand the cost of the way you bet.

3) Frequency of visits: You don't want to play too often. The way you get away with not playing often or not playing for too long is you scout to know when you can get in lots of rounds (fast game) in a fraction of the time. I used to play to get in hours. The number of rounds played was pathetic and winning seemed tough. Then I started try to maximize game speed. I played a small fraction of the time and still got in more rounds. With proper scouting and self control you can get in more rounds in much less time and fewer visits.

4) Bet spread: By playing a stronger system you can spread less and win more. Also you can make your spread look smaller than it is. You can choose the frequency of bets made at various sizes to some degree by the way you wong. Spread is generally looked at as the off the top bet to max bet. That need not be your actual spread.

5) Think about the counter stereotype of what all counters do. Figure out how to not fit that stereotype at little or no cost. If no counter would do something you might want to consider doing it. Just do everything smart. Don't throw away much EV at all. Use the info gathered by your count to make moves that are in opposition to what they expect a counter to do when the cost is minimal or nothing. Of course the simpler your count the more useless your info gathered is for making smart decisions. Everything you do is exactly what they expect and info gathered is so weak to start with that it is of little to no use in making intelligent decisions in the manner I have described.

This is much better than they don't know what i am doing but i just win too often so they still back me off.

[stopgambling]

As " Jab " said tolerance , tolerance then decent pen. I put the "decent " in myself . after all it still need to be somewhat decent.