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Thread: Blackjack House Edge Tests

  1. #14
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    I note the following terminology:

    Standoff percentage: 8.307038 %

    The only BJ games that I have plundered where a

    tied hand isn't called a 'push' but a "stand-off"

    have all been in Great Britain. Perhaps the O.P.

    has coded British rules as in "No Hole Card" and

    dealer 'natural' takes all.

  2. #15


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    Quote Originally Posted by DSchles View Post
    "Hand 5: I surrender (Bet Total = 32.5) (Total Won/Lose = 0)"

    Also, by convention, house advantage is quoted as what we refer to as IBA, that is, as a percentage of the original, or initial, bet. You are quoting TBA, total bet advantage, so, even if done properly, your numbers will never match those normally quoted. Total bets are about 13.5% higher than original bets, so edges quoted using total bets will be the reciprocal or about 1/1.135, or 88% of the values obtained by using IBA.

    Finally, values you'll see for BS in the literature or online are almost always for off-the-top scenarios and not dealing down to a cut card, which introduces a cut-card effect that adds to the house edge. It is a very small value for the 6-deck game you're using (about 0.01%), but it would be much more significant in a SD game.

    Don
    Actually (to use your own words back at you), you ignorant, pompous asshole, he's not quoting TBA, IBA, IBS, CNN, or MSNBC, he's running through a few scenarios to SHOW US the work he's doing inside the program, without showing the code which I'm fairly sure only a few of us, not you, would understand. As such, to speak to a broader audience, he's trying to show the scenarios and how its being tracked. You are right about the Total Wager being off, though, and its likely due to how he coded it, as I suggested originally.

    Also, I want it to be known to Norm, when he reads this, that I'm not going to stand for YOU, Don, calling me names and hurling insults left and right at me, without allowing me my chance for rebuttal, or with you circumventing forum rules. I've used your words against you as a "tit for tat" so we are even, and that will be that, but if it happens again and you're not taken care of in the same manner EVERY SINGLE OTHER member on this forum has, I'll have zero issues leaving it again for basically the same reason I left it in the first place, only this time its because someone I USED to respect.


    @ZMF, I too saw that and thought the same, but figured the OP would have listed that in the original rulleset so I looked for other variations that would result in his HE and couldn't find much of a match other than an H17 9-11 game.

  3. #16
    Senior Member Bubbles's Avatar
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    Can you two please get over it and get along? I hope you're correct in that this is the last of your scrimmage. I really love Don and, though I don't know you well Ex, I believe I like you too. What I don't personally like seeing you two continuing to name call and not get along. You seem like you have a lot to offer here and Don has offered, and continues to offer, much to the field. Tearing each other down does not contribute. We're not competing against each other. Turn that energy into pwning some BJ.

    To the OP, what language are using? If running more sims doesn't fix the HE, perhaps one of us could look over it for errors.
    Last edited by Bubbles; 10-30-2016 at 06:53 PM.

  4. #17


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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenix View Post
    Can you two please get over it and get along? I hope you're correct in that this is the last of your scrimmage. I really love Don and, though I don't know you well Ex, I believe I like you too. What I don't personally like seeing you two continuing to name call and not get along. You seem like you have a lot to offer here and Don has offered, and continues to offer, much to the field. Tearing each other down does not contribute. We're not competing against each other. Turn that energy into pwning some BJ.

    To the OP, what language are using? If running more sims doesn't fix the HE, perhaps one of us could look over it for errors.
    Well, since Don fired the first insults and name calling, and Norm looked over it and locked the thread before I could respond, I don't see this going well at all for any party. Don's proving himself to be insufferable, Norm's looking biased, and I certainly can't win because I'm the weak link out of the three, since I haven't written a book (yet) or developed software, /shrug.

    To the point of the OP, I, like you, asked for a glimpse of t he code as I was fairly confident at first that this would the culprit. As Don pointed out on the OPs "expression" of how the events are handled, there could, in fact, be a coding error as I originally suggested, and like you, I'm curious to know what language he's using, because this could be a simple fix.

    I disagree with the notion earlier int his thread about "reinventing the wheel" simply because sometimes it ends up being projects like these, that allow us to further understand aspects of a game we otherwise wouldn't have taken an interest to.

    I'll use an example. There is a very specific slot machine in casinos today, although not in every one of them, and not always plentiful. This slot machine has a state in which it can be beaten repetitively at very little risk, with an extremely high reward. It looks and acts like a normal slot machine, and to the naked eye neither you, me, nor the mailman would be able to figure this machine out the way I have. Having said that, at the drunken behest of a friend who had stumbled into a rudimentary understand of how the machine worked, saying, "Hey watch this, I can make it win every once in a while", I stumbled into an understanding of how the machine worked, down to the T, because of my knowledge for the software, its language, and how a coder might code the "Event" itself. Ultimately turning an otherwise "ordinary" slot machine, into nearly a $500/week babysitting gig just by checking up on it at my nearby store, maybe 6 or 7 times a day if I'm there 'working' a 8+ hour shift.

    In fact, it was my understanding of the code, that almost tabled "card counting" as a profession of mine, as I learned a multitude of ways to quite literally print money at a casino if it had within it, certain machines. Ultimately, this lead to my second great understanding of coding within a casino, when I cracked part of the "code" in which the software calculates player ratings on tables and slot machines alike. In doing so, I've managed to find greater ways to mask win/loss as discussed in another current thread, as well as crank out 100k+/yr with basically little to no heat.

    And all of this, stemmed from learning Python and COBOL in the 6th or 7th grade lol. Most (literally) rewarding class I've ever taken.

  5. #18
    Senior Member Bubbles's Avatar
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    Nice. Sometimes we have to reinvent the wheel because of school assignments too. Or personal "assignments" because we're trying to learn a new language or something.

    I've not been that monetarily rewarded for knowing how to code like you, but it has come in handy on more than one occasion. I programmed people's graphing calculators in high school to solve math stuff and show the work. That generated an extra buck, especially around finals week. At an old job, we were responsible for doing some paperwork. I found out a way to get it done in about 30 minutes because of how I figured a programmer would have built our software. For the remainder of my shift I played video games or did homework. I never told my coworkers my secret and it routinely took them 8+ hours to do the same work. I've been away from tinkering with code for about a decade, so I'm not of much help anymore, but I can still pick through it better than your average joe.

  6. #19


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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenix View Post
    Nice. Sometimes we have to reinvent the wheel because of school assignments too. Or personal "assignments" because we're trying to learn a new language or something.

    I've not been that monetarily rewarded for knowing how to code like you, but it has come in handy on more than one occasion. I programmed people's graphing calculators in high school to solve math stuff and show the work. That generated an extra buck, especially around finals week. At an old job, we were responsible for doing some paperwork. I found out a way to get it done in about 30 minutes because of how I figured a programmer would have built our software. For the remainder of my shift I played video games or did homework. I never told my coworkers my secret and it routinely took them 8+ hours to do the same work. I've been away from tinkering with code for about a decade, so I'm not of much help anymore, but I can still pick through it better than your average joe.
    Honestly, I find the knowledge of knowing how, and knowing what a coder would do, and how he or she would write it, and how it would function, more important than knowing the language itself forwards and back.

  7. #20


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    Quote Originally Posted by CoopOwnz View Post
    It's a lot of code so before I dig into that I want to make sure I'm doing the house edge calculation properly.
    So lets say I am betting $5 each hand.
    Hand 1: I'm dealt blackjack. (Bet Total = 5) (Total Won/Lost = 7.5)
    Hand 2: I split once & win both (Bet Total = 15) (Total Won/Lost = 17.5)
    Hand 3: I double down & lose (Bet Total = 25) (Total Won/Lost = 7.5)
    Hand 4: Dealer gets BJ (Bet Total = 30) (Total Won/Lost = 2.5)
    Hand 5: I surrender (Bet Total = 32.5) (Total Won/Lose = 0)

    That is essentially how my program is handling each situation.
    At the end of all the hands just doing ((Total Won/Lost) / (Total Bet)) * 100 for house edge. What do you think?
    Thanks for your thoughts so far.
    As Don said, your Hand 5 should be

    Hand 5: I surrender (Bet Total = 35) (Total Won/Lose = 0)

    What does your program react on Hand 6 (Dealer has BJ and player also has BJ)?

  8. #21


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    Quote Originally Posted by Exoter175 View Post
    And all of this, stemmed from learning Python and COBOL in the 6th or 7th grade lol. Most (literally) rewarding class I've ever taken.
    Not familiar with Python, but am intimately familiar with Cobol, PL1, Fortran and assembler language. Now I have dated myself. I am only superficially familiar with current languages and platforms. If you want to swap a little assembler, I am you huckleberry. If you are telling me that Cobol (and I readily admit I never heard of Python) helped you break down anything then I will tell you I am skeptical. I really doubt any slot machines have Cobol code to do anything. Maybe assembler of C or some of the new stuff. At any rate, what is it you are trying to convey to the masses about having some programming knowledge.

    What you failed to mention is how you got access to the code of any of the machines? You see I can only understand what I have access to!
    Luck is nothing more than probability taken personally!

  9. #22


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    Quote Originally Posted by Stealth View Post
    Not familiar with Python, but am intimately familiar with Cobol, PL1, Fortran and assembler language. Now I have dated myself. I am only superficially familiar with current languages and platforms. If you want to swap a little assembler, I am you huckleberry. If you are telling me that Cobol (and I readily admit I never heard of Python) helped you break down anything then I will tell you I am skeptical. I really doubt any slot machines have Cobol code to do anything. Maybe assembler of C or some of the new stuff. At any rate, what is it you are trying to convey to the masses about having some programming knowledge.

    What you failed to mention is how you got access to the code of any of the machines? You see I can only understand what I have access to!
    I think you took the COBOL/Python a bit too literally. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Python...ming_language)

    The way I meant that was, by taking a programming class when I was 12 or 13 years old, which taught me COBOL, FORTRAN, and later Python, it eventually lead to things like C++, JAVA, HTML, etc. When I say I "Cracked the code", I mean that in the sense that my history in programming the very language that goes into these machines, gave me an insight into "why" a certain machine did a thing that was semi-repeatable, from there I was able to kind of "reverse engineer" what I imagined to be the code for the machine, and come to a more solid conclusion. It would actually be illegal to literally "Crack" the code for these machines, but also incredibly difficult to do. Those eproms are impossible to get your hands on, and some of the most guarded bits(pun) of information in the casino industry.

    The real, point, if you will, was that I hadn't foreseen at the age of 12 or 13, that my elective class would eventually put me at the forefront of an AP play worth a ton of money, and that I'd beat basically everyone except for my drunk friend who understood none of it, to the punch. That, without having taken the class, starting my foray into computer programming and computer science, I'd likely have never understood anything past the "Huh, that's cool" point of my conversation with my friend.

  10. #23


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    Quote Originally Posted by Exoter175 View Post
    I think you took the COBOL/Python a bit too literally. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Python...ming_language)

    The way I meant that was, by taking a programming class when I was 12 or 13 years old, which taught me COBOL, FORTRAN, and later Python, it eventually lead to things like C++, JAVA, HTML, etc. When I say I "Cracked the code", I mean that in the sense that my history in programming the very language that goes into these machines, gave me an insight into "why" a certain machine did a thing that was semi-repeatable, from there I was able to kind of "reverse engineer" what I imagined to be the code for the machine, and come to a more solid conclusion. It would actually be illegal to literally "Crack" the code for these machines, but also incredibly difficult to do. Those eproms are impossible to get your hands on, and some of the most guarded bits(pun) of information in the casino industry.

    The real, point, if you will, was that I hadn't foreseen at the age of 12 or 13, that my elective class would eventually put me at the forefront of an AP play worth a ton of money, and that I'd beat basically everyone except for my drunk friend who understood none of it, to the punch. That, without having taken the class, starting my foray into computer programming and computer science, I'd likely have never understood anything past the "Huh, that's cool" point of my conversation with my friend.
    So, you didn't have access to the code but using you knowledge of programming you were able to "imagine" what the code would be to "get an edge"? Really?

    You better hope you are not following any of my code around looking for "visions". I didn't get my experience in a junior high class, I managed a professional staff of 120 developers building commercial software.

    Give me a break.............
    Luck is nothing more than probability taken personally!

  11. #24


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    Quote Originally Posted by Stealth View Post
    So, you didn't have access to the code but using you knowledge of programming you were able to "imagine" what the code would be to "get an edge"? Really?

    You better hope you are not following any of my code around looking for "visions". I didn't get my experience in a junior high class, I managed a professional staff of 120 developers building commercial software.

    Give me a break.............
    The Edge was already apparent, it was the knowledge of the code that allowed me to understand "WHY" an edge existed. Is it really that hard to grasp?

  12. #25
    Senior Member Bubbles's Avatar
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    The intro programming classes that heavily cover logic, as well as the general structure of languages, created coders who think in a very specific manner. It is often possible to find that predictability in the things they code. I did it myself at work. I didn't think it would be something one could do on the machines, but it does not greatly surprise me that it was possible.

  13. #26


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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenix View Post
    The intro programming classes that heavily cover logic, as well as the general structure of languages, created coders who think in a very specific manner. It is often possible to find that predictability in the things they code. I did it myself at work. I didn't think it would be something one could do on the machines, but it does not greatly surprise me that it was possible.
    This is EXACTLY what I meant by including that tidbit about my education. Simply by knowing HOW someone would likely code a specific language, I was able to understand WHY a specific advantage worked the way it did. Not to be understood the way Sealth inferred, that by learning a language, I was able to find an advantage on a machine. Quite the opposite of that. The Language merely allowed me to understand, and by doing so, look a bit closer at the manufacturer for more machines with similar coding, and I did. To the few of us "Machine AP's" that actually exist in the world, almost all of us know about the 5 or 6 games from a very specific manufacturer, on a very specific cabinet. The running gag between us being the belief that someone high up in that company HAD to be an AP for so many of their themes to be vulnerable.

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