Phil Ivey Borgata case

[davethebuilder]

The term is “civil cheating” which means, in a gaming sense, that you are not playing by the rules and are not playing in the spirit of the game. It is not enough to warrant Police intervention as ”criminal cheating” would but enough to have you marked as a cheat. If you add money into the equation then it becomes more serious as there are financial consequences for the loser. This case also saw him introduce a second language into the game which further implicated him. So all this adds up to more than out strategizing the casino.

Two points stand out in this case – why did he get so greedy? $2m - $3m would have been more than enough and he may have got away with it. But $10m? Perhaps he had lost there before? The second point is that it’s very easy to safeguard against edge sorting and for a major casino to miss this is plain incompetence. Red flags should have been flying at Crockfords long before they did.

UK Supreme Court judgement:



Timeline of events:

ENGLAND

August, 2012: Phil Ivey and Cheung Yin Sun used edge sorting to gain an advantage at Punto Banco Baccarat and won 7.8m British Pounds at Crockfords Casino in London. The casino accused him of cheating and refused to pay him any winnings but refunded the 1m British Pounds he put up as front money.

May, 2013: Phil Ivey sues Genting UK PLC, the parent company of Crockfords Casino, for his winnings.

October, 2014: High Court of Justice hears the case and Phil Ivey loses.

January, 2015: Phil Ivey is granted permission to appeal the case.

April, 2016: Court of Appeals upholds the High Court decision.

February, 2017: UK Supreme Court grants permission for an appeal.

October, 2017: UK Supreme Court upholds the Court of Appeals decision. Phil Ivey loses.

UNITED STATES

April - July, 2012: Phil Ivey and Cheung Yin Sun used edge sorting to gain an advantage at Punto Banco Baccarat and won 9.6m US Dollars at the Borgata Hotel and Casino in Atlantic City, New Jersey. The Casino paid the winnings.

April, 2014: Borgata Hotel and Casino sues Phil Ivey to recover the money plus additional winnings. Cheung Yin Sun and Gemaco(card manufacturer) are co-defendants.

December, 2016: Phil Ivey loses the case and is ordered to repay the Baccarat winnings.

[ummagumma]

"The term is “civil cheating” which means, in a gaming sense, that you are not playing by the rules and are not playing in the spirit of the game"

So could casinos and bookmakers be accused of 'civil cheating' by not playing in the spirit of the game and banning winning players ?

[davethebuilder]

I guess that's a fair point. I'm just saying that in the eyes of the British legal system Phil Ivey went too far with what he calls advantage play.

[bjarg]

I attempted to send you a private message, but it would not go through.

I dont have a paid subscription, if you like you can write me at [email protected].

[BJPloppy]

if you like you can write me

Thanks.

Done.

[bjarg]

Congratulations. Sounds like a lot of fun & profit.

In my days working for the industry, I became aware of a number of instances where sorts were used on baccarat, 3CP, Caribbean Stud & blackjack. I heard about a team that attempted to use sorts against MS, but I am not sure if they found any success.

Thanks, indeed it was fun. Probably the most fun I had on a trip. After we got banned we moved to another city that had a quite decent 6 deck game and were clueless so we were able to camp there for several days and book a veey decent win also.

At first they definitely suspected we were marking cards. At one hand we had a lot of money in the table, splits, double downs, the whole thing. Im guessing we must have had near 10k. I was sitting last and when it got to my turn I made a big effort to try to see what card was coming next since I really didnt want to lose that one. Apparently it was very obvious because the dealer inmediately pulled the deck back and covered it with his hand. After that they started changing cards every half hour or so.

This was outside of the US by the way.

[Eliot]

Thanks, indeed it was fun. Probably the most fun I had on a trip. After we got banned we moved to another city that had a quite decent 6 deck game and were clueless so we were able to camp there for several days and book a veey decent win also.

At first they definitely suspected we were marking cards. At one hand we had a lot of money in the table, splits, double downs, the whole thing. Im guessing we must have had near 10k. I was sitting last and when it got to my turn I made a big effort to try to see what card was coming next since I really didnt want to lose that one. Apparently it was very obvious because the dealer inmediately pulled the deck back and covered it with his hand. After that they started changing cards every half hour or so.

This was outside of the US by the way.

Thanks for the extra details and congrats on the 6D game.

I know one case in the U.S. where the casino was sure the team was marking the cards, double deck BJ -- let them play for over a month to try and figure out what they were doing. I just happened to be on-site for an entirely different reason and solved it for them in 5 minutes. Glad it wasn't you. Then again, this was about 2010, pre-Ivey.

One thing is for sure, pre-Ivey no one in the casino industry thought of sorting as cheating. Mostly, they were too embarrassed to even report it up the chain of command. The legacy of Ivey is that this method of AP is subject to confiscation of winnings and court battles forever more. A sad result.

[bjarg]

Thanks for the extra details and congrats on the 6D game.

I know one case in the U.S. where the casino was sure the team was marking the cards, double deck BJ -- let them play for over a month to try and figure out what they were doing, management was absolutely certain they were marking the cards. I just happened to be on-site for an entirely different reason and solved it for them in 5 minutes. Glad it wasn't you. Then again, this was about 2010, pre-Ivey.

What's interesting about this specific case is that although they banned us apparently they never realized what we were doing since they never changed cards. My guess is that they looked at the cards and analyzed them but were not able to detect the flaw. In fact I have no idea how the guy that told me about the game was able to see it.

What's even more interesting is that there must be dozens or even hundreds of casinos from all over the world buying cards from that same factory with the exact same flaw.

[Eliot]

What's interesting about this specific case is that although they banned us apparently they never realized what we were doing since they never changed cards. My guess is that they looked at the cards and analyzed them but were not able to detect the flaw. In fact I have no idea how the guy that told me about the game was able to see it.

What's even more interesting is that there must be dozens or even hundreds of casinos from all over the world buying cards from that same factory with the exact same flaw.

Smarter casinos let players continue to play until they figure it out. Otherwise, the team will just train another group to come in and do the same thing, rinse and repeat.

Did you ever watch my video on card defects? There are so many different ways cards are flawed.

Just in case ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lD3E4FJblfA

[bjarg]

One thing is for sure, pre-Ivey no one in the casino industry thought of sorting as cheating. Mostly, they were too embarrassed to even report it up the chain of command. The legacy of Ivey is that this method of AP is subject to confiscation of winnings and court battles forever more. A sad result.

Fortunately this didnt happen to us and we had no problemas cashing our winnings. In fact when the manager came to talk to me he was very nice about it. He even made it clear he knew we were not cheating and even congratulated us. Very nice guy.

[Eliot]

Fortunately this didnt happen to us and we had no problemas cashing our winnings. In fact when the manager came to talk to me he was very nice about it. He even made it clear he knew we were not cheating and even congratulated us. Very nice guy.

I'm guessing your team didn't win $9M Again, congratulations.

[bjarg]

Smarter casinos let players continue to play until they figure it out. Otherwise, the team will just train another group to come in and do the same thing, rinse and repeat.

I agree, but in retrospect I ultimately blame myself for not being able to play longer. There were two things we could have done better:

1) train more to be able to play the strategy effortlesly without raising any suspicion right from the beggining.

2) play other games aggresively also. The edge we had at blackjack was so big we could definitely afford some heavy -EV camo. Im sure the fact that we were only playing blackjack is what got us banned so quickly.

Although we won and we were able to execute our game plan, Ive always thought about this trip as more of a failed attempt, since Im sure we could have won A LOT more if we would have done those two things differently.

[Eliot]

I agree, but in retrospect I ultimately blame myself for not being able to play longer. There were two things we could have done better:

1) train more to be able to play the strategy effortlesly without raising any suspicion right from the beggining.

2) play other games aggresively also. The edge we had at blackjack was so big we could definitely afford some heavy -EV camo. Im sure the fact that we were only playing blackjack is what got us banned so quickly.

Although we won and we were able to execute our game plan, Ive always thought about this trip as more of a failed attempt, since Im sure we could have won A LOT more if we would have done those two things differently.

Yes and yes. But the excitement of getting out there and trying it must have been huge, so impatience is understandable.

For (2), Ivey screwed up for exactly the same reason, so did Don Johnson. It's not like you're not in good company here.