T count simulation

[Freightman]

Exactly. You have to be able to act on the information to make it valuable. In the case you site you get to act on first card information. If you could just play those first card T and aces that would have value. But the way the game is played first card T is just a half of a hand total that you might have a good feeling about. There is no way to use the information to your advantage. In other words, with no way to make use of the information, it is a meaningless piece of partial information on your hand. Given a way to act on it that information has value. With no decision to act on it is a meaningless piece of partial information until you find out what your other card is. I don't understand why AP's would have such a problem with the concept of how information becomes of value to you when playing. Since you can take no action with the information until after you get your second card it is inconsequential. Your decision will be based on the 2 card total and the dealers up-card not what you first card was.

Hopeless

[Ustonzen]

Don S? Easy - alphabet soup.

Which he'll yell at claiming it makes no sense.

[Freightman]

...And now a word from our sponsors. Freighter will have the Green Mango Tingle. T3 - Bananna Nut. You are what you eat? Don S. Hmmm. That's a head scratcher. Sunshine Pine?

About 100 feet or so from my favourite French bakery cafe, is a guy who uses real fruit to make exceptional fruit smoothies. Like any artist, he samples all creations before giving them to the customer.

My favourite is a jumbo sized mango and pineapple. Simply delicious.

[Freightman]

Don S? Easy - alphabet soup.

Which he'll yell at claiming it makes no sense.

I just had alphabet soup, and had the biggest vowel movement ever.

[Bricklayer]

Hi Tarzan...Did I make you jump the gun?

I know you been going over this for years...whereas I just thought of this way of counting this past summer. I mean, you beat me to it. Lol. So you will have single through 8 deck sims?

Have you thought about how this might change the game if you show everyone your information. Do you want to show a huge loophole in the lower deck games to the point they will not be found anymore?You know, Are you all in? I was going to do this if you didn’t suuurely. All I can do now is thank you for doing this work in which Idk if I would have gotten around to it either.

I’m excited about this now. And again Thank you for beating me to it. I can’t wait for all brain freezes people will have learning it.

Polite spread anyone? Lol

[DSchles]

Hopeless

Yes, utterly. Actually scary that he doesn't understand the mathematics of the value of the single card lying there. Notice that he won't answer whether he'd accept the $400 or not and why. Because, he'd actually have to think about the question.

Wonder, if I built a million-dollar house, which didn't have the roof on yet, but was otherwise complete, if Three would tell me that what was standing there had no value until the roof was on! :-)

Don

[Three]

Actually scary that he doesn't understand the mathematics of the value of the single card lying there.

I understand, but the information is of no value because you can't act on it. it is just half of your hand total. An Ap gathers information and uses it to leverage an advantage. You can't use the information so it has no value. If you could change you bet or do any number of other things that you can't do the information would be of value to you. But you can't so it has no value to you. It is just one of 10 first card ranks that make up the long run. Are you better off with a first card A or T than 5 or 6. Of course you are but that doesn't give the information value. That is my point. I have explained it many times yet many are acting like they don't understand what makes information valuable to an AP. I could be dealt a BJ and that information is of no value if I can't change my bet. That doesn't mean getting a BJ isn't good. It just means getting a BJ provides no valuable information for you to act on. I was talking about making use of information which is what an AP does. Seeing your first card's rank after you can't change your bet is useless information. After you see your second card and the dealer up-card you have enough information to make a decision that has value. Why is that so hard for you all to understand?

[Gronbog]

Three, you actually gave an example of where the information could be used in an earlier post. You mentioned having first-card information. You current argument suggests, for example, that it is useless to develop a hole card strategy, because showing the hole card is not part of the procedures of the game.

[DSchles]

Often, your problem is the English language and the unclear manner in which you express yourself. (And no, repeating the same thing ten times doesn't make it CLEARER to someone; it just makes it more annoying.)

This was your original sentence (what it has morphed into since is quite irrelevant, because my argument hasn't changed since the beginning, while yours has): "It is a fallacy to view being dealt a T or A as a first card after you have already bet and can't change your bet as having an advantage . ..." (My emphasis at the end.)

So, this is a yes or no question that requires a one-word answer and not a dissertation (I dare you to answer in one word; you're totally incapable of doing that): If you have already made your bet and now see only the first card of your hand and it is an ace, do you have an advantage over the dealer at that precise moment in time, or do you not? Yes, you do, or no you don't? One word!

Don

[Three]

Yes, utterly. Actually scary that he doesn't understand the mathematics of the value of the single card lying there. Notice that he won't answer whether he'd accept the $400 or not and why. Because, he'd actually have to think about the question.

I didn't answer because it is a moot point. You can't do that because the dealer isn't going to stop dealing long enough for you to make a deal even if the casino would allow such a deal to be made. Which most wouldn't where I play. You might as well ask a question predicated on the moon being made of blue cheese. But I did answer the question over and over. I said if you can act on the information the information has value but if you can't the information is meaningless. I don't understand why that concept is so hard to understand. You all are trying to make the information meaningful by inventing ways that will virtually never happen to allow you to act on the information.

Don never answered whether he thought a second card T was valuable information. It makes no difference to you which of your two cards you see first. Either is just half of a initial 2 card hand total. Given that, if a first card T that you can't act on is valuable information it should have the exact same value as your second card regardless of your first card's rank. Your logic toward the game must be consistent. Since it doesn't matter which card you see first or if you see them simultaneously because you can take no action until after they are both dealt then the second card T must have the same value as the first card T even though you have seen your first card already. If it doesn't then you are saying the order in which you see your cards affects the odds on your hand. Like if you see a T first and then a 6 that 16 has more value than it would if you saw the 6 first. You can sit on both sides of the fence. What if the dealer dealt you first card face down by mistake and you saw you second card first? does that change the value of the first card?

To use a Moses sports analogy. If you bet a pick game does your team scoring first have any value or is it the final score that determines the value of the first score of the game? If you could still make a pick bet with the same odds after your team scores first it would have value but you can't. You can get a warm and fuzzy feeling all you want after that score is made but that won't get you paid.

[seriousplayer]

I understand, but the information is of no value because you can't act on it. it is just half of your hand total. An Ap gathers information and uses it to leverage an advantage. You can't use the information so it has no value. If you could change you bet or do any number of other things that you can't do the information would be of value to you. But you can't so it has no value to you. It is just one of 10 first card ranks that make up the long run. Are you better off with a first card A or T than 5 or 6. Of course you are but that doesn't give the information value. That is my point. I have explained it many times yet many are acting like they don't understand what makes information valuable to an AP. I could be dealt a BJ and that information is of no value if I can't change my bet. That doesn't mean getting a BJ isn't good. It just means getting a BJ provides no valuable information for you to act on. I was talking about making use of information which is what an AP does. Seeing your first card's rank after you can't change your bet is useless information. After you see your second card and the dealer up-card you have enough information to make a decision that has value. Why is that so hard for you all to understand?

"I could be dealt a BJ and that information is of no value if I can't change my bet."

Why is the information of no value? My point is that when high and low cards are removed in unequal proportions, the player's chances of winning change as well. When 10s are removed in unequal proportion the basic composition of the deck changes. AP make use of this information of when these situation occurs and use them to their advantage is the heart of winning at Blackjack. We know that 10 cards favor us and before any cards are dealt APs use previous information to determine what to bet on their next hand.

[Three]

Three, you actually gave an example of where the information could be used in an earlier post. You mentioned having first-card information. You current argument suggests, for example, that it is useless to develop a hole card strategy, because showing the hole card is not part of the procedures of the game.

And I said that information had value because you could use it by acting on it. AP is about using information as leverage. How are you going to leverage information you can't act on? It is the ability to use information that makes it useful. When you can't use the information to leverage an advantage the information is meaningless. You get that A or T no matter what. You didn't do anything to make it happen more often. You can't use the information to your advantage so it is useless information. In the long run you will get a T or A a certain percent of the time for each TC bin. The fact that you are currently playing a round that you got one doesn't increase the TC bins long run average. You can't use the information in any way. It is useless information until you get your second card. At which point the 2 card total has use in your index play. The information the first card was a T doesn't change the value of the hand total.

[Gronbog]

Actually you don't need to be able to change your bet to know that you have an advantage. If your first card is a T or ace, at that moment, you have an advantage over the dealer, regardless of what you bet. Being able to change your bet would increase your monetary EV, but the inherent advantage at that moment is not defined by that. It's defined as a percentage of your initial bet, whatever it was.