Keeping track of side counts in shoe games

**All Clear** · 09-13-2015, 02:10 PM

For those who use balanced side counts in shoe games (or have used balanced side counts in shoe games in the past), how do you properly split the two counts in your head while at the table? My guess is that using foot position wouldn't work as well (it would be more helpful with a non-balanced side count of aces only), since the running side count would be changing with many different ranks that come out of the shoe.

I saw one recommendation to use numbers for the main count, and letters for the other side count (start at "M", with "L" being a running side count of -1, and "N" being a running side count of "+1" counting using letters instead of numbers), so I could be remembering a count of +4R, for example. Does anyone use this, or recommend?

Arnold Snyder recommended starting the side count at 50, to remove the +/- sign from the side count, so the main and side counts would start at 0/50, and the difference between 50 and the side running count would be added to the main count when appropriate. Example: -2/47 = -5 (combined running count). Does anyone use this, or recommend?

Please, no comments regarding how a side count is not necessary in blackjack- I have specific reasons for wanting to use a second balanced count for one particular game/location. In general, other than this specific game/location, I simply use Halves for Blackjack, and have been using Halves for a few years.

This is my first thread I have started in the forum. :-) Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks!

**Three** · 09-13-2015, 02:45 PM

I just use english numbers for both. You can use a different language for each but it would take too much thought for me. Some use some sort of visualization for 1 or both counts. It just takes some getting used to. If you only use it for attacking one game that could take a while. Thinking in different colors might help. Everyone is different. I just got used to keeping 2 numbers instead of one. Sorry I don't have any kool tricks based on experience.

**seriousplayer** · 09-13-2015, 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by Tthree

I just use english numbers for both. You can use a different language for each but it would take too much thought for me. Some use some sort of visualization for 1 or both counts. It just takes some getting used to. If you only use it for attacking one game that could take a while. Thinking in different colors might help. Everyone is different. I just got used to keeping 2 numbers instead of one. Sorry I don't have any kool tricks based on experience.

Talking about using English letters for Aces side counts. It would be harder to use English letters to represent numbers in an eight deck blackjack because there 32 aces and only 26 letters in the alphabet. For 1-6 decks it is a good strategy.

**Three** · 09-13-2015, 05:46 PM

I said I use english numbers because you can use numbers in different languages for each counts.

Originally Posted by seriousplayer

It would be harder to use English letters to represent numbers in an eight deck blackjack because there 32 aces and only 26 letters in the alphabet.

For straight side counting you can use the alphabet. You start over at "A" when you hit the end of the alphabet. If you are so clueless you don't know you started the alphabet over again you shouldn't be playing.

**seriousplayer** · 09-13-2015, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by Tthree

You start over at "A" when you hit the end of the alphabet. If you are so clueless you don't know you started the alphabet over again you shouldn't be playing.

I thought you would have a better strategy that starting over at A when you hit the end of the alphabet since you are a multi-parameter counter player.

**Three** · 09-13-2015, 06:37 PM

What would be better? If you are paying such poor attention that you don't know whether you have seen 1 ace or 27 aces to 6 aces or 32 aces you are going to lose your shirt. Get out quick before you are broke. I mean if you were seriously confused just looking at how many cards have been played should tell you whether you have seen aces you could count on the fingers of one hand or over 26 aces. The idea is to use your abilities as a human to skip as much math etc as you can. A computer might need to know the difference between A as 1 ace seen and 27 aces seen and might have to do math to determine every TC for a decision but I hope as a human you can discern most TC without doing the math. If you know the situation without making a lot of the stuff a computer would do you save time which is money. I am not sure why being a multi parameter count guy would mean I need to think I would not know which it is. Users of multi parameter counts are usually the ones that are capable of knowing whether 1 ace has been seen or 27. The plug and play types are the ones you would think would get confused about the obvious.

**seriousplayer** · 09-13-2015, 07:26 PM

Originally Posted by Tthree

What would be better? If you are paying such poor attention that you don't know whether you have seen 1 ace or 27 aces to 6 aces or 32 aces you are going to lose your shirt. Get out quick before you are broke. I mean if you were seriously confused just looking at how many cards have been played should tell you whether you have seen aces you could count on the fingers of one hand or over 26 aces. The idea is to use your abilities as a human to skip as much math etc as you can. A computer might need to know the difference between A as 1 ace seen and 27 aces seen and might have to do math to determine every TC for a decision but I hope as a human you can discern most TC without doing the math. If you know the situation without making a lot of the stuff a computer would do you save time which is money. I am not sure why being a multi parameter count guy would mean I need to think I would not know which it is. Users of multi parameter counts are usually the ones that are capable of knowing whether 1 ace has been seen or 27. The plug and play types are the ones you would think would get confused about the obvious.

I am not an Ace Side counter nor do I use a multi-parameter count as of right now. Just asking a question. If a mult-parameter count pay so good attention then they don't need to use letters to represent aces.

**Three** · 09-13-2015, 07:29 PM

Originally Posted by seriousplayer

I am not an Ace Side counter nor do I use a multi-parameter count as of right now. Just asking a question. If a mult-parameter count pay so good attention then they don't need to use letter to represent aces.

Why don't you ever make serious statements or pose serious questions? You do call yourself Seriousplayer. Is that one of those comical names like shorty for a really tall guy?

**seriousplayer** · 09-13-2015, 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by Tthree

Why don't you ever make serious statements or pose serious questions? You do call yourself Seriousplayer. Is that one of those comical names like shorty for a really tall guy?

Somehow I never though of my statements or questions as NOT serious. Maybe I should second though my questions and statements next time before I post. Yes, I can my self Seriousplayer because I play casino games seriously and with the odds.

**ZenKinG** · 09-13-2015, 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by All Clear

For those who use balanced side counts in shoe games (or have used balanced side counts in shoe games in the past), how do you properly split the two counts in your head while at the table? My guess is that using foot position wouldn't work as well (it would be more helpful with a non-balanced side count of aces only), since the running side count would be changing with many different ranks that come out of the shoe.

I saw one recommendation to use numbers for the main count, and letters for the other side count (start at "M", with "L" being a running side count of -1, and "N" being a running side count of "+1" counting using letters instead of numbers), so I could be remembering a count of +4R, for example. Does anyone use this, or recommend?

Arnold Snyder recommended starting the side count at 50, to remove the +/- sign from the side count, so the main and side counts would start at 0/50, and the difference between 50 and the side running count would be added to the main count when appropriate. Example: -2/47 = -5 (combined running count). Does anyone use this, or recommend?

Please, no comments regarding how a side count is not necessary in blackjack- I have specific reasons for wanting to use a second balanced count for one particular game/location. In general, other than this specific game/location, I simply use Halves for Blackjack, and have been using Halves for a few years.

This is my first thread I have started in the forum. :-) Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks!

Waste of time. Move to Halves or RPC for shoes if you wanna go to a higher count. Or just use HiLo and learn to track multiple tables at once. The added EV from tracking two tables at once in the short and long run trumps any added EV you will get from a higher count, even Halves. The playing conditions such as pen will have the next biggest impact on your EV with the third one being speed of game and how many rounds per minute. The count you choose is mostly irrelevant in the large scheme of things. Your hourly win rate really comes down to how many tables you can track at once, penetration, and speed of the game(No side bet delays from other players, how many players playing, quick payoffs, dealer quick to deal, etc.) Of course a higher count will add some dollars to your EV in the long run, but its largely irrelevant when you got other factors that can seriously blow up your win rate if you focused on those things I just mentioned.

Don't be the guy who side counts 7s and aces in an 8 deck game while playing a 65% pen game with H17 and no DAS at a crowded table full of side bets. Don't be that Rob Lowe(DirectTV reference) LOL

**Three** · 09-13-2015, 07:53 PM

ZK. Did you ever consider he knows what he is doing and try to answer his question. I know he has a good reason for asking. Some games you use counts to beat are not as you described. There are lots of games that deal cards and lots of bets that can be made at these tables. In many cases all agree it is worth it.

**ZenKinG** · 09-13-2015, 08:16 PM

Originally Posted by Tthree

ZK. Did you ever consider he knows what he is doing and try to answer his question. I know he has a good reason for asking. Some games you use counts to beat are not as you described. There are lots of games that deal cards and lots of bets that can be made at these tables. In many cases all agree it is worth it.

I actually didnt read the part where he said to not advocate side counts cause he has his 'reasons'. So I apologize to the OP. Disregard my message. I actually didnt even read the entire post LOL. Hes a fellow Halves user! Congrats OP

**All Clear** · 09-14-2015, 11:43 PM

Thanks to Tthree for the comment- if anyone else reading this has ever had the need to use two balanced counts at the same time, please chime in, and post any tricks you may have used, such as those I mentioned in the original post. I figured most people on this forum wouldn't have ever had the need to try something like that (it isn't easy), but did think the number that did would be greater than one. :-)

ZenKing- As you may have guessed from the fact that I started this thread, I have never previously tried to keep two balanced counts before (one main and one side). Unless I want to (and I think most are bad at this) estimate quarter decks that are dealt (to calculate excess aces, so I don't have to do a second side count), the most powerful shoe game single count (with no side counts used) that I know of is Halves. Therefore, I use it. :-)