Question for the full time pros or part timers...

[KJ]

How is your way more useful in a practical sense? I'm not asking this in a combative way, I'm actually curious.

In the end, EV really comes down to a per round basis. So, to me the natural way to measure is per 100/rounds. There really are no variables that way. 100 rounds is 100 rounds whether it takes 20 minutes to play or 2 and a half hours.

If you convert rounds to hours or shoes, and that is what you are really doing, you start dealing with variables. All hours are not created equal. All shoes are not created equal. But all 100 round segments are.

People do whatever makes them comfortable. In my case, almost all my sessions are going to be shorter than an hour. My first two exit triggers can have a session be as short as a few minutes to 15 minutes, while my third (3 shoes played) would probably 45 minutes to an hour. If I measured in terms of time, I would have many, many parts of an hour to add up.

If I measured in shoes, I would have parts of shoes because I wong out aggressively. If I counted a shoe that I played only a few rounds and wonged out as a full shoe, I am really screwing with that shoe number. But if I just count rounds played, I just have a solid numbers to add up. 67 rounds here. 45 rounds over there. 18 rounds in another place.

[chrisjs87]

In the end, EV really comes down to a per round basis. So, to me the natural way to measure is per 100/rounds. There really are no variables that way. 100 rounds is 100 rounds whether it takes 20 minutes to play or 2 and a half hours.

If you convert rounds to hours or shoes, and that is what you are really doing, you start dealing with variables. All hours are not created equal. All shoes are not created equal. But all 100 round segments are.

People do whatever makes them comfortable. In my case, almost all my sessions are going to be shorter than an hour. My first two exit triggers can have a session be as short as a few minutes to 15 minutes, while my third (3 shoes played) would probably 45 minutes to an hour. If I measured in terms of time, I would have many, many parts of an hour to add up.

If I measured in shoes, I would have parts of shoes because I wong out aggressively. If I counted a shoe that I played only a few rounds and wonged out as a full shoe, I am really screwing with that shoe number. But if I just count rounds played, I just have a solid numbers to add up. 67 rounds here. 45 rounds over there. 18 rounds in another place.

The effect of aggressive wonging, as well as playing to the cut-card can be simulated to find --what I consider to be at least-- a useful average. For example, my one strategy would yield a per shoe profit of $21.57 if when I reached my wong-out point I could simply tell the dealer to reshuffle. A highly unlikely scenario. On the opposite end of the spectrum, I could stay inevery single shoe until the cut card is reached and yield a per shoe profit of $13.04. Not going to happen. Averaging those two possible scenarios together I arrive at a per shoe profit of $17.30. I then subtract around 5% for tipping, etc, to arrive at an approximate $16.50 per shoe.

As you said though, do whatever makes you comfortable. While it might not be strictly as accurate as your method, I'm certainly comfortable with it.

[KJ]

I then subtract around 5% for tipping,

What's this now? Tipping....does that have something to do with knocking over a sleeping cow?

[Fiestastation]

Answer to OP question: Average 2 shoes per session. I play very short sessions. I have exit triggers of: TC -1.5 to -2, shuffle after showing spread, if neither of first two has occurred after 3 shoes even if haven't shown spread.

About measuring by shoes played: I did this early on in my career. Problem was quite a big difference between a shoe played heads up and a shoe played with a near full table. As much as 64 rounds vs 17 or 18 rounds. I know we can average these out but that's a huge range.

Later I tracked my results by time, but my very short sessions style of play had me adding up all sorts of small bits of time, from as short as a couple minutes.

Finally I settled on rounds played.....because in the end that is what really matters. Estimating as best I can.

As far as win rate. It should be universal: Per 100 rounds played. Whether it takes 2 hours to get that 100 rounds of 25 minutes (heads up). Once you have settled on this, you then start focusing on games and what you can do to get that 100 rounds quicker.

KJ....how exactly do you arrive at these estimations of rounds played?

Is it something like the number of shoes played (estimated in the case of mid-shoe entry/exit) multiplied by the expected number of hands per shoe based on players at the table?

[KJ]

KJ....how exactly do you arrive at these estimations of rounds played?

Is it something like the number of shoes played (estimated in the case of mid-shoe entry/exit) multiplied by the expected number of hands per shoe based on players at the table?

Total cards played (figured by penetration estimate), divided by # players x 2.8 (cards per round). Sometimes on DD games, I just count rounds.

[chrisjs87]

What's this now? Tipping....does that have something to do with knocking over a sleeping cow?

friggin' non-tippers. making us all look bad.

[Masterhoudini]

friggin' non-tippers. making us all look bad.

This is a whole new can of worms in it of itself. My stance personally is that at a red chip level, it's prob unnecessary profit margin wise. No one can argue about tipping for good customer service though if you so choose. At the green chip level and higher, I would advocate selective tipping. You can earn yourself better and in some cases WAY better penetration, valuable information and longevity this way. Red chip level, I'd say the cost prob outweighs the benefits, but feel free to do so if you really have received exceptional service.

[KJ]

friggin' non-tippers. making us all look bad.

Why because I don't want to pay some sort of 'casino tax' that encourages Sheldon Adelson and Steve Wynn to not meet their responsibility of paying their employees a fair wage. Hey maybe I should just donate to Wynn and Adelson personally, when I give to the homeless and other's less fortunate than myself.

[Freightman]

This is a whole new can of worms in it of itself. My stance personally is that at a red chip level, it's prob unnecessary profit margin wise. No one can argue about tipping for good customer service though if you so choose. At the green chip level and higher, I would advocate selective tipping. You can earn yourself better and in some cases WAY better penetration, valuable information and longevity this way. Red chip level, I'd say the cost prob outweighs the benefits, but feel free to do so if you really have received exceptional service.

I've tipped way to much, for political reasons. I will tip, to a lesser degree fir political purposes, as well as tip those who provide excellent customer service.

Make no mistake - for the most part, critters don't give a shit about you. A certain store, where pit critters share in tokes, has cured me of my apparent generosity, where on a yearly basis, my expense for being a nice guy was likely more than it should have been. The asshole in question had the temerity to call me a cheapskate after some idiotic ploppy dug himself out of a huge hole, threw the dealer a couple of blacks.

I realize that the critter in question, basking in the level of his mediocrity, has ascended beyond the pinnacle of his abilities. Regardless, no excuse on his part.

[Fireman]

KJ, I disagree with your premise that because you are fundamentally opposed to tipping, it should not be used. I may (or may not) feel the same way about tipping, but if it can increase my longevity and I could get better penetration, it may be worth it. Your argument would carry more weight if you demonstrated that there was no linkage between tipping and playing conditions.
Just as an example, last week at a local shop I had my max bet out and I split hands. My blunder was that I did not have enough chips (towards the end of a negative run), so I had to put more cash on the table. On one of the hands, I doubled; and again more cash came out of my pocket. The pit boss and floor manager came over to the table like hawks. I won all three hands and tipped the dealer better than I would normally. The two suits then left the table. I can not quantify the value of that extra tip, but I am certainly happy with how things worked out.

[Fireman]

I would also add that a vast majority of the dealers that I have encountered are personable and try to be helpful. They work under difficult conditions and deal with very problematic customers. I do agree that it should be the employer's responsibility to adequately compensate these individuals. However, if tipping is utilized strategically, it can be a win-win for all.

[KJ]

Here is the reasoning behind my own tipping policy (or lack there of).

1.) I have tipped in the past and often felt it was unappreciated. The problem is that I want to tip a small, very small percent of my EV. At my midlevel green to mid black level that's a couple dollars for my short session. When the count sours and I have my max bet out of four or five hundred, a couple white chips, even a red chip is looked down and unappreciated. It really is. You are better off not tipping. The incident that I like to tell is when I tipped two bucks, the dealer responded "Thanks, now I can buy a newspaper".

2.) When I tip for service, I like to tip the person who provided that service that I want to acknowledge, not tip into a pool that will be divided among people I want to tip as well as maybe some rude, unhelpful dealers that I specifically don't want to tip. I tip the taxi driver, not the taxi drivers association for them to split among drivers.

3.) Getting a little something for your tip. Many players use their tips as a method to get something like better penetration. I know I am an anomaly, in that I am not interested in that. To me that borders on bribery and collusion. You are asking for and if not asking for, have an understanding to get something otherwise not offered in exchange for your tip. That is technically bribery and collusion. I am not looking for anything special. I seek out certain conditions (penetration) and if you offer it, I will play, if not, I play somewhere else. I am not interested in bribing you to get it. I am not a "get the money at any cost guy". I want it on my terms. I have to be comfortable with my actions.

4.) And somewhat related to #3, some players tip, to sort of buy the silence of the dealer, hoping he/she will not rat you out. This too, sort of borders on that bribery situation, but I have engaged. I have engaged in it and more than once, thinking I had 'bought' a little silence from the dealer, heard with my own ears, the dealer still rat me out to the pit as he went on break. I am sure it happened much more often that I didn't hear.

5.) I play short sessions. It isn't like I am sitting there for hours as some players do, looking for a friendly environment. I am in and out in minutes. I am not looking for nor asking for anything special. Just do your job and deal me a fair game. And for that I hope your employer pays you what you are worth.

Let me conclude by saying that I don't feel like I am stiffing the dealer by not tipping, as I would a waiter, waitress, bartender. I don't view the dealer as providing a personal service like waiter, waitress, bartender, bell hop or barber. I think of it more as a menial customer service type job, like a cashier at CVS and I don't tip the cashier at CVS.

[Freightman]

friggin' non-tippers. making us all look bad.

Tell us your average bet, and your average tip, as well as the circumstance revolving around the tip, eg, blackjack, and we will put it into simple terms, mathematically, as to why it is usually a bad deal.