Buying "surrender hands" from other players

[21gunsalute]

21gun, you can buy a surrender.

1. If someone is going to surrender anyways, you aren't causing them any harm by buying the surrender from them, so there should not be an ethics objection.
2. Some places may require the original player to play out the hand. Fine, you tell the guy, I'll pay you half your bet, and you hit the hand, and I get any winnings from the hand
3. It is profitable as long as it is not a BS surrender. Sometimes it may be very profitable (I've seen 12 v. 7, even 12 v. 2).

Yes there is an ethics question. I shouldn't be able to profit off from your hand when you're guaranteed to lose money, and I shouldn't be coercing you into making this decision. That's akin to loan sharking. Actually loan sharking may very well be a better deal for the person taking the loan because he at least has a chance to use the money and make a profit before paying it back, whereas the person who gets coerced out of taking the surrender gets absolutely nothing in return. You may get someone to agree to such a deal, but they have nothing to gain from such a deal. It's like making a deal with the devil.

Now I don't know of any place that would allow anyone but the original bettor to play out the hand, but you've been around more than I have so maybe some places will, but I can't imagine why any casino would allow such a thing to happen. At any rate, such a move would put casino personnel on high alert. I have absolutely no doubt that the casinos I play in that offer surrender would treat the first such attempt with a stern warning and show you the door if you attempted to do so again. So why would anyone risk such a move? I played for an hour last night and made 220 units without buying or selling a surrender. Had I been actively "buying" surrenders I may have made 221 units, I may have made 215 units, or most likely (I estimate a better that 90% chance) I would have been thrown out on my ear long before I got anywhere near that point! Barring that I would have had a guilty conscience for taking advantage of other players at the table. It just isn't worth it. Maybe it is to you and some others here, but why risk a barring and/or having the casino change the rules and eliminate surrender for possibly gaining a few units a night? Furthermore, why bring such an AP move to light in a forum that we know casino personnel are monitoring? If they see this thread they'll be on to anyone who attempts such a crazy move the first time it happens. There will be no ifs, ands or buts. This thread has removed all doubt!

[Three]

Most scavenger plays I see made are by the plops. I rarely see anyone buying surrender hands but certain plops will be getting the money together to take your 11 double or maybe even share a DEFENSIVE split if you even hesitate to do it. I am not sure if this should generate heat as it is common among the obvious plops. Buying a surrender hand is not common at all. That may generate heat and actually costs the casino money in the long run if you are doing it at the right time. Of course if you are buying a correct play surrender the house makes money in the long run.

[RS]

We aren't "slandering" or flaming you, 21g. We're worried, if anything. I'm not even mad, I'm actually kind of impressed.

I'm not going to let someone else profit off from my hand when I would then be required to play out the hand and still be guaranteed to lose money.

I take it you don't understand what SURRENDER means....maybe you play in casinos where surrender isn't permitted (which would make sense, since it seems you aren't quite getting what it is).

When a player surrenders, he loses 50% of his bet. Yes, you are G-U-A-R-A-N-T-E-E-D to LOSE money ($$$$$) when you surrender [unless there is a crazy dealer error].

In other words, when a player surrenders, he LOSES HIS ENTIRE BET, BUT WINS 50% OF HIS BET.

K, now that we have that settled, let's backtrack a bit and figure out what "buying someone's surrender" means.

If someone were to buy MY surrender, that means I would LOSE MY ENTIRE BET (because I'm giving it to the player), BUT I'M WINNING 50% OF MY BET (because he is giving me 50% of my original bet).


Raise your hand if you see the similarities and how they are the EXACT same thing. [You might be able to get away with charging the guy $1 or a cigarette for doing a hand motion for you.]

Will you please read all the comments before commenting and quit trying to twist everything around? Since the other player is half invested in the hand, he get's his 50% bet back + 50% of the profits.

Refer to post #95: http://blackjacktheforum.com/showthr...l=1#post107924

Anyone with an IQ above 70 would interpret the post as, "'Other player' gives original bettor $50. If the hand is won, 'Other player' receives $50."

[21gunsalute]

Hmm. is that the wind blowing? The horse still looks deadto me. All the beating it is taking is going to make it easier for the scavengers to get their meal. What was the meal to be scavenged? Oh yeah, it was someone selling their surrendered hand to you for the same price the casino would pay them. I am not sure what all this other stuff has to do with it. Nobody that wants to buy a surrendered hand will invest half in it so the only reason to discuss such a transaction is how to deal with that 1 in a thousand Ah*le that is going to screw you on the deal. The buy half of the hand will never happen without deceit by the seller. Is that what we are talking about here. It is a valid concern for any scavenger play. As we see here there are some that would do it. Do you need to consider that 1 in a 1,000 guy that will cheat you into the value of a scavenger play. I don't ever remember seeing any issue with scavenger plays.

Tthree, I'm not screwing you out of anything. If you agree to my terms than you're screwing yourself (at least in your mind). Now please, stop the slander, the twisting of words and the out and out lies! If you want to buy my surrender, those are my terms. If you don't like my terms, SHUT UP AND DON'T ASK AGAIN! Capice?

[RS]

Hey, 21gun, I have a brand new corvette for sale, only $1,500.


Oh, and by sale, I mean you give me $1,500 and you don't get to touch the car. THOSE ARE MY TERMS.

[21gunsalute]

Refer to post #95: http://blackjacktheforum.com/showthr...l=1#post107924

Anyone with an IQ above 70 would interpret the post as, "'Other player' gives original bettor $50. If the hand is won, 'Other player' receives $50."

I know exactly what surrender is, I play it all the time. As for your above comment please see your original post #86:

Slow down, killer. You have a $100 hand, I "50/50" invest with you for $50. The hand wins. You give me 50% of the wins (ie: $50)?

You didn't ask anything about how the bet would be split. I think it's universally understood (anyone with an IQ above 70) that when 2 players have an equal amount invested in the hand they split the bet and the proceeds. Now you can't honestly tell me that you don't understand this concept. It looks now like you were just trying to set a poor trap. If that's the case, why would you do such a thing?

[moses]

Mick: Very good sense of humor. Nice to start off my morning coffee with a chuckle. We fish in two different streams. Surrender isn't even offered in the games I play. I'm not sure I understand the concept of buying someone else's bad hand nor that I want to. But I know that having someone standing by my side offering to reimburse me for my bad hands would be heaven. Admittedly, Im have trouble following the line of line in this whole article. But it is interesting.

[21gunsalute]

Hey, 21gun, I have a brand new corvette for sale, only $1,500.


Oh, and by sale, I mean you give me $1,500 and you don't get to touch the car. THOSE ARE MY TERMS.

Okay, but let's say you have a Corvette with a book value of $80,000 and you still owe $40,000 on and you're having trouble making payments. You're thinking about surrendering your car to the bank. I offer to buy the surrender from you for $40,000. I then sell the car for $80,000 to your next door neighbor right in front of your face.

[RS]

Any decent person (in my position), who agree on that, would be fine with it. I sell you the car for $40K; you do whatever you want with it.

Someone ELSE would freak out because "how did that help me at all OMFG GIMME THAT $$$$ I WAS GUNNA GIVE IT TO THE BANK BUT GIVED IT TO YOO. THEN YOU DID WHAT YOU WANTED TO WITH IT. BUT I WANT MONEY"

[Three]

I am not sure why 21g keeps saying people are coerced. No coercion is ever needed and a person would only be asked once by most players. There would be no sales pitch. Perhaps he just doesn't know the definition of coercion.

Coercion:
1) Using force or intimidation to obtain compliance.
2) Force or the power to use force in gaining compliance, as by a government or police force.

Obviously none of these would be used at a BJ table. You merely request something just like request can you pass me a napkin. The person is free to comply or not. Coercion would be pass me a napkin or you can't eat your meal, or I will punch you in the mouth, or you will be fired. All three of those would be coercion. For coercion to take place there is either real consequences or the threat of consequences for failure to comply. Obviously there is no consequences to a player refusing to sell you their surrender at the same price they are selling it to the casino at. He just refuses and life goes on.

If all you can think about is benefiting yourself then sell it in a negative count to eat cards and surrender to the casino in a positive count to conserve cards. Trying to make a different deal than that offered isn't going to happen so why even discuss it unless of course you are going to deceive the buyer into believing he bought your hand and then cheat him on the deal. That is a real possibility on scavenger plays. The casino will usually not get involved although I have seen exceptions. Legally everything is the initial hand owners in most jurisdictions and he is only guilty of a crime if he keeps your payment to him. This is the only time I have seen the casino get involved. The guy may say it was a gift but only the giver knows the intent so he has no leg to stand on.

[Shark]

I tell you guys one thing. If I ever make a team, 21gunsalute is not going to be a part of it.

[Jabberwocky]

Good move!

[Freightman]

Humor value continues