Different styles of play and GWAE guest, Card Counter “Joe”

[Gronbog]

"Exchange of ideas" is a phrase that comes to mind as being our primary strength. Not pounding ideas up everyones ass or whizzing off the lurkers for a self serving purpose.

Exactly. Exchange the ideas, get the information out, refute ideas that you disagree with. The frequency at which HiOpt II is mentioned may be annoying to some, but simply being annoying in return without saying anything of substance serves no purpose. I invite the Anti-HiOpt II Brigade to defend their position with information, and then, if it needs to be at the same annoying frequency, then so be it.

[Freightman]

Perhaps. But consider those with less experience that are being "brainwashed." Not my word but was used on another sight. Maybe it is our duty to stand against something blatantly wrong?

There is that saying ....... the meek shall inherit......

Granted, minor in the scope of things, but translating to a business perspective.....
The meek get fucked.

I see it every day, well, I used to, only see it now occasionally.

Perhaps digressing, I went to school from kindergarten to grade 7 with a kid who wore a leg brace due to polio. He was pretty meek. In grade 7, he was being bullied by this asshole. The prick was incessant, until I stepped in. This asshole pulled a (pen) knife on me, and he got me. I'll let u figure out the analogies.

[BoSox]

I invite the Anti-HiOpt II Brigade to defend their position with information, and then, if it needs to be at the same annoying frequency, then so be it.

Gronbog, are we talking about counts or people? If we are talking about counts I do not want to be categorized as being part of an Anti-HiOpt II Brigade as why would I bad mouth something that I am unfamiliar with? Would it be unfair of me to bad mouth the HIOpt 11 count? Absolutely. On the other hand, I have no desire to defend my position in the count debate, and why should I? I am only accountable to my wife and myself, and she is not complaining. People have strong opposing opinions around here and try to influence others by insulting the systems others use. The fact of the matter is they are also insulting the people using those systems whether they realize it or not. If someone attempts to counter and prove their position they will be wasting their time as the person insulting will never be satisfied anyway. When push comes to shove is when I usually enter the fray. I do completely understand what the Freighter is attempting to do "to which I admire", and although he is perfectly capable of defending himself, if he gets piled on I won't sit back and watch. Everyone pays their own bills, so a little respect is in order.

[Joe Mama]

So, let's get MWP to start a poll.

I think he did this and we found out Zee brought home as much money with his system as a Hi-opt guru.

[Joe748]

I kind of skipped over a lot of what you guys have been debating but I think it’s a debate about counting systems you could have the greatest most complex counting system but if you don’t have the balls to go out day after day to play hour and after and have the social skills to back it up you won’t get very far.

[Freightman]

I kind of skipped over a lot of what you guys have been debating but I think it’s a debate about counting systems you could have the greatest most complex counting system but if you don’t have the balls to go out day after day to play hour and after and have the social skills to back it up you won’t get very far.

Just to help you out here, we have a combination of a grammatical whiz eccentric, who, on a self proclaimed mission from God, has continually pounded hi opt 2 up our backsides, and his trusted sidekick, our beloved local purveyor of redundant Minutae.
I have a vision of their recruits, cannon fodder for their over the top assault, lying motionless on the battlefields, sacrificed, their naked posteriors pointing skywards, their flag, anally planted blowing proudly in the wind, displaying the red, white and blue hi Opt 2 emblem.

You did mentioned something in your post regarding balls. Might I suggest a game changer for you. Of course, I refer to the FBM ASC - for feel good play. I might point out, that just yesterday, for the first time, I entered a site on discord, hosted by Ryemo. Interestingly enough, I noted that the entry message changes per entry to site. I noted, with interested, one particular message, that I will now incorporate into the logo laden lore of the FBM ASC. I proudly announce, with details to follow, addon features of the soon to be regaled - Scratch & Sniff.

For those of the Hi Opt Brigade, who have not Maximized their daily tally if votes today, I note that I have not yet achieved my daily quota of unhelpful ratings, and would appreciate your assistance in said regard.

Joe, I trust you will find the aforementioned to be an adequate explanation f our current discussion on dining arrangements.

[refinery]

joe. Imo. You're a helluva nice young man. Yes, you'd likley be a top notch salesman for most companies.

Now, before you decide to tell me what it takes? Come back after your bankroll hits $3 mil. You paid cash for the big house on the golf course. Put 3 kids thru college and paid cash for more cars than you can remember.

I'm sorry, but your numbers 333, 700, $500k just are not pencilling out for a newbie starting from scratch.

But you are bright young man with alot "in" you.

sdrbj

[Gronbog]

Gronbog, are we talking about counts or people?

for me, it's not about people or counts. It's about the tactics. I understand Freightman's frustration. I just think that his strategy for responding keeps the pot boiling longer than it needs to.

[Freightman]

for me, it's not about people or counts. It's about the tactics. I understand Freightman's frustration. I just think that his strategy for responding keeps the pot boiling longer than it needs to.

Absolutely no disrespect intended.
I have a philosophy. Discussions start slathered in honey. If honey doesn't work, give rope. Then, if that doesn't work, you give more rope - the language gets sharper, more pointed and direct. All of these steps, and more were followed. All you have to do is check history.

Now, on the other side of the coin, are 2 individual alphas, with a coalition of lesser inclined subordinates. Allow me to demo the typical newbie inquiry - enhanced, the point if which everyone will get.

Newbie- I want to make some money, what count should I use?
Mentor- unless you use the best system, hi opt 2 with asc, then you're a fucking idiot. Hi lo is inferior and you need an ace neutral count, adjusted, in order to reduce variance and perform well n a lower spread.
Newbie- oh golly gee willickers, hiw can I learn hi Opt 2 with asc.
Mentor- I will teach you, for I am wise and wonderful.

This is not an isolated scenario - it occurs day after day after day. Mind you, it's lessned lately, for some unknown reason.

Then of course, the mutual admiration society kicks in, promoting side by side counts, proffered with paragraph after paragraph of indecipherable minutiae, mostly with dribble of no value to most, spurred by an insatiable need of self justifying g that novellos are required to better explain the point - a man in live with his own keyboard.

That is also daily occurrence. The slathered with honey approach followed by the extension n if rope philosophy doesn't work here either.

So, if you don't like my eventual tactics, that's fine - but if you're true to yourself, then you'll know I'm right - which then begs the question of why you didn't Complain about this bullshit in the first place.

Something will give eventually - might be me, who knows. Hell, I like flash, 3 as well, but enough is enough.

[Freightman]

Absolutely no disrespect intended.
I have a philosophy. Discussions start slathered in honey. If honey doesn't work, give rope. Then, if that doesn't work, you give more rope - the language gets sharper, more pointed and direct. All of these steps, and more were followed. All you have to do is check history.

Now, on the other side of the coin, are 2 individual alphas, with a coalition of lesser inclined subordinates. Allow me to demo the typical newbie inquiry - enhanced, the point if which everyone will get.

Newbie- I want to make some money, what count should I use?
Mentor- unless you use the best system, hi opt 2 with asc, then you're a fucking idiot. Hi lo is inferior and you need an ace neutral count, adjusted, in order to reduce variance and perform well n a lower spread.
Newbie- oh golly gee willickers, hiw can I learn hi Opt 2 with asc.
Mentor- I will teach you, for I am wise and wonderful.

This is not an isolated scenario - it occurs day after day after day. Mind you, it's lessned lately, for some unknown reason.

Then of course, the mutual admiration society kicks in, promoting side by side counts, proffered with paragraph after paragraph of indecipherable minutiae, mostly with dribble of no value to most, spurred by an insatiable need of self justifying g that novellos are required to better explain the point - a man in live with his own keyboard.

That is also daily occurrence. The slathered with honey approach followed by the extension n if rope philosophy doesn't work here either.

So, if you don't like my eventual tactics, that's fine - but if you're true to yourself, then you'll know I'm right - which then begs the question of why you didn't Complain about this bullshit in the first place.

Something will give eventually - might be me, who knows. Hell, I like flash, 3 as well, but enough is enough.

Oh, and I still don't have my daily tally if unhelpfuls, so, idpf the hi Opt brigade can help out, that would be appreciated.

[Eye of the Eagle]

Have you ever heard so much bullshit in one thread?

[Dbs6582]

I kind of skipped over a lot of what you guys have been debating but I think it’s a debate about counting systems you could have the greatest most complex counting system but if you don’t have the balls to go out day after day to play hour and after and have the social skills to back it up you won’t get very far.

Joe, what I struggle with is not about having the balls or social skills to back it up; it's is this even possible. It's hard for me to see how anybody could get enough time in with your strategy to win big money. I get that your method will win the money, if the casino will let you play this way. If your method was viable, then nobody would use team play or the big player approach. The purpose of the big player is to get the max bet on the table without the pit knowing what's going on. You say you're going from mix to table max with no cover and some casinos are letting you get away with it for extended periods of time. And it's not just one casino, it's a lot of them. It's hard for me to believe that there are that many dumb casinos out there. They know what to watch out for; it's a person with a big bet spread...and who bets big when the deck is "rich" with high cards. I don't think there is any casino out there that doesn't know this.

Umbrellaman said he saw someone do this and the guy lasted 10 minutes. At one of my local casinos, the regulars said there was a counter that came through and do this (this guy went from 1 X $10 to 2 X $1,000) and he lasted less than an hour...and my local casinos see very few counters. I spot only 1 or 2 a year (and these are small time players), and sometimes none for a whole a year. But when they come through, the suits are ready for them. In this case, the regulars told me the suits (they said they had never seen so many suits and security guards) surround the table and back him off. The regulars said when the counter (it was a young kid that fit the profile of a counter) went to the cage, they made him wait at least 3 hours before they paid him. The casino made his life miserable and they made him waste a lot of time standing around. I could tell you many stories like this I've heard from people. It's hard for me to see how you got in 1,000 hours your first year playing this way. I would think most of your time would have been spent getting backed off and driving between casinos. You said you played some casinos where the main boss wasn't around. Even the backup bosses in my area aren't going to let you get away with this.

Also, I spent some time going through the math and doing some sims on CVCX on your strategy to see if it's possible. It's possible but it's definitely way outside expected EV. In your interview, you said you played 1,000 hours in your first year. During this time you went through a 200 hour losing streak where you lost $30,000. It sounded like this was midway through the year. Since you won two lucky ladies at $35,000, this pretty much cancels out your $30,000 lost. But you would have still have had to win about $400,000 in the last 5 months of the year since you said you won only $100,000 in the first half of the year. Again, it's possible but you'd have to have really had some huge positive variance the second half of the year to pull this off.

I just wanted you to understand why I've been a "Doubting Thomas" when I heard your story. But since it's gambling, I know it's possible.

[Jabberwocky]

Joe, what I struggle with is not about having the balls or social skills to back it up; it's is this even possible. It's hard for me to see how anybody could get enough time in with your strategy to win big money. I get that your method will win the money, if the casino will let you play this way. If your method was viable, then nobody would use team play or the big player approach. The purpose of the big player is to get the max bet on the table without the pit knowing what's going on. You say you're going from mix to table max with no cover and some casinos are letting you get away with it for extended periods of time. And it's not just one casino, it's a lot of them. It's hard for me to believe that there are that many dumb casinos out there. They know what to watch out for; it's a person with a big bet spread...and who bets big when the deck is "rich" with high cards. I don't think there is any casino out there that doesn't know this.

Umbrellaman said he saw someone do this and the guy lasted 10 minutes. At one of my local casinos, the regulars said there was a counter that came through and do this (this guy went from 1 X $10 to 2 X $1,000) and he lasted less than an hour...and my local casinos see very few counters. I spot only 1 or 2 a year (and these are small time players), and sometimes none for a whole a year. But when they come through, the suits are ready for them. In this case, the regulars told me the suits (they said they had never seen so many suits and security guards) surround the table and back him off. The regulars said when the counter (it was a young kid that fit the profile of a counter) went to the cage, they made him wait at least 3 hours before they paid him. The casino made his life miserable and they made him waste a lot of time standing around. I could tell you many stories like this I've heard from people. It's hard for me to see how you got in 1,000 hours your first year playing this way. I would think most of your time would have been spent getting backed off and driving between casinos. You said you played some casinos where the main boss wasn't around. Even the backup bosses in my area aren't going to let you get away with this.

Also, I spent some time going through the math and doing some sims on CVCX on your strategy to see if it's possible. It's possible but it's definitely way outside expected EV. In your interview, you said you played 1,000 hours in your first year. During this time you went through a 200 hour losing streak where you lost $30,000. It sounded like this was midway through the year. Since you won two lucky ladies at $35,000, this pretty much cancels out your $30,000 lost. But you would have still have had to win about $400,000 in the last 5 months of the year since you said you won only $100,000 in the first half of the year. Again, it's possible but you'd have to have really had some huge positive variance the second half of the year to pull this off.

I just wanted you to understand why I've been a "Doubting Thomas" when I heard your story. But since it's gambling, I know it's possible.

A nice indirect way of saying bullshit but it's ok because bullshit happens too.