Can ASMs be rigged to advantage the house?

[bjarg]

I'm simply pointing out that it is possible to rig the machines.

Is that a claim you make based on your vast experience dealing with Shufflemaster's machines?
Or on something you read on the internet of which you probably only understood the title?
Don't take this as an insult, but when you know nothing about something, it is better to keep your mouth shut.

I will tell you what: I can give you unlimited access to several of this machines for unlimited time.
I'll give you 20:1 on whatever stakes you chose if you can rig the machine to cheat in any sort of way that would generate a casino advantage.
You can bring an army of engineers with you if you want.
Of course the machine cannot be all disarmed and pluged to 10 computers.
It has to look the exact same way as it does when new and being used in a casino.
What do you say?

Now, before you lose your money, try using your brain for a minute instead of repeating like a parrot what you read on other boards and try to imagine what could happen if you ACTUALLY acomplished this task.
Not to hard to imagine is it?
Im actually rooting for you on this one buddy.
We all are.

[muffdiver]

Is that a claim you make based on your vast experience dealing with Shufflemaster's machines?
Or on something you read on the internet of which you probably only understood the title?
Don't take this as an insult, but when you know nothing about something, it is better to keep your mouth shut.

I will tell you what: I can give you unlimited access to several of this machines for unlimited time.
I'll give you 20:1 on whatever bet you chose if you can rig the machine to cheat in any sort of way that would generate a casino advantage.
You can bring an army of engineers with you if you want.
Of course the machine cannot be all disarmed and pluged to 10 computers.
It has to look the exact same way as it does when new and being used in a casino.
What do you say?

Now, before you lose your money, try using your brain for a minute instead of repeating like a parrot what you read on other boards and try to imagine what could happen if you ACTUALLY acomplished this task.
Not to hard to imagine is it?
Im actually rooting for you on this one buddy.
We all are.

Listen fella. Take the time to read the patent number that I provided. You are the one that is talking without knowing. READ the patent and then tell me who's the dummy.
Please stop the dumb talk, read the patent, and get back to me.
Also, quit talking like you are representing a collective group with your "we all are" comment. I doubt if others want that association with you.

[bjarg]

Listen fella. Take the time to read the patent number that I provided. You are the one that is talking without knowing. READ the patent and then tell me who's the dummy.
Please stop the dumb talk, read the patent, and get back to me.
Also, quit talking like you are representing a collective group with your "we all are" comment. I doubt if others want that association with you.

I think there is no question as to who the dummy is, but lets try making it even clearer.
So, you are a big casino in the US, and you call Bally to purchase some of their fine MD3 shufflers.
You will probably talk to Bob and have a couple of drinks with him before closing the purchase.
You get the machines.
Now, explain to us step by step how it is you rig them to cheat.
Dont tell me they can recognize the cards or any crap like that.
Since you know so much about them Im sure you can talk specifics.
Take us step by step as to what it is you would do with the machine (including everything, what buttons you push, everything), to set it up to cheat.
I cant wait to see your answer.

PS: For those who know Bally you should know Bry is reading this thread and LAUGHING HIS ASS OFF at the idiocy of some of the posters here.

[muffdiver]

I think there is no question as to who the dummy is, but lets try making it even clearer.
So, you are a big casino in the US, and you call Bally to purchase some of their fine MD3 shufflers.
You will probably talk to Bob and have a couple of drinks with him before closing the purchase.
You get the machines.
Now, explain to us step by step how it is you rig them to cheat.
Dont tell me they can recognize the cards or any crap like that.
Since you know so much about them Im sure you can talk specifics.
Take us step by step as to what it is you would do with the machine (including everything, what buttons you push, everything), to set it up to cheat.
I cant wait to see your answer.

PS: For those who know Bally you should know Bry is reading this thread and LAUGHING HIS ASS OFF at the idiocy of some of the posters here.

You obviously refuse to read the patent so there's no sense in trying to reason with you.
Why do you refuse to read it?

[bjarg]

You obviously refuse to read the patent so there's no sense in trying to reason with you.
Why do you refuse to read it?

Ok, I've had enough with you.
I feel Im Einstein trying to discuss the theory of relativity with a 5 year old.
Now dont get me wrong... im not comparing myself to Einstein. Im a lot smarter than he was.

EDIT: I take it back. I think I will take pleasure in making you look like an idiot.

Please, can you copy and paste the part of the patent that makes you think the machines can be rigged to cheat?

[muffdiver]

Ok, I've had enough with you.
I feel Im Einstein trying to discuss the theory of relativity with a 5 year old.
Now dont get me wrong... im not comparing myself to Einstein. Im a lot smarter than he was.

EDIT: I take it back. I think I will take pleasure in making you look like an idiot.

Please, can you copy and paste the part of the patent that makes you think the machines can be rigged to cheat?

There's no need to cut and paste anything. Google US patent #6250632. It's THAT easy!

[Aslan]

There's no need to cut and paste anything. Google US patent #6250632. It's THAT easy!

This device seems from a fast read to be one that places the cards in a predetermined, yet so-called random order (I suppose akin to a table of random numbers). I wonder if any such device has been approved for use in a casino anywhere, because it could surely be a way to put cards in an order that would be beneficial to the house and not the player, as in a "cold" deck, and there is virtually no way to detect such a device except by running computerized tests on its output order. We know that a shoe can be arranged where one or two people cannot possibly win no matter how they play there hands; that's in Grosjean's book among others. Whether a shoe can be arranged to favor the house over multiple players is unknown, but a computer could be used to make this analysis. Also, since the technology exists, it is feasible that a legitimate machine could be altered to achieve the same result, but it seems a bit far-fetched to me. Still, the technology in the patent seems proof that someone is considering such a machine and palming it off, rightly or wrongly, as a random shuffle machine. We do know that if clumps of high and low cards are eliminated from the shoe, card counting is rendered useless. The only way a player could detect such a situation is if he never sees runs of high or low cards consistently over long periods of time. It's an intriguing thought, and if the mob of olden days were still running casinos, I'd be fearful every time I played in one of their casinos. But in today's gaming environment, the only way I see such a device being implemented is if the gaming commission bought off on the fact that the cards were "randomly shuffled", though predetermined, as the manufacturer claims. I think the commission would have to have rocks in its head to do such a thing, but I have seen dumber things in government, not to get into politics please.

[BJGenius007]

This device seems from a fast read to be one that places the cards in a predetermined, yet so-called random order (I suppose akin to a table of random numbers). I wonder if any such device has been approved for use in a casino anywhere, because it could surely be a way to put cards in an order that would be beneficial to the house and not the player, as in a "cold" deck, and there is virtually no way to detect such a device except by running computerized tests on its output order. We know that a shoe can be arranged where one or two people cannot possibly win no matter how they play there hands; that's in Grosjean's book among others. Whether a shoe can be arranged to favor the house over multiple players is unknown, but a computer could be used to make this analysis. Also, since the technology exists, it is feasible that a legitimate machine could be altered to achieve the same result, but it seems a bit far-fetched to me. Still, the technology in the patent seems proof that someone is considering such a machine and palming it off, rightly or wrongly, as a random shuffle machine. We do know that if clumps of high and low cards are eliminated from the shoe, card counting is rendered useless. The only way a player could detect such a situation is if he never sees runs of high or low cards consistently over long periods of time. It's an intriguing thought, and if the mob of olden days were still running casinos, I'd be fearful every time I played in one of their casinos. But in today's gaming environment, the only way I see such a device being implemented is if the gaming commission bought off on the fact that the cards were "randomly shuffled", though predetermined, as the manufacturer claims. I think the commission would have to have rocks in its head to do such a thing, but I have seen dumber things in government, not to get into politics please.

I have sat on the first base and taken a peek on the operation of ASM. Saw a light like price scanner used in Target or Wal-Mart to scan bar code for price checking. I determined ASM can see if a card is an ace or ten. Then considering this algorithm to move all cards in left chamber to the empty right chamber using gravity:

1. Push a card half way, if it is a small card, push it from left chamber to right chamber. Do this step until there is 26 cards in the bottom of the right chamber. Step 1 is now complete. There are 26 cards, all small, in the bottom. ASM can go even further, to make it consists of five clump, six clump, seven clump and eight clump.

2. Push a card half way through to scan the bar code or use image processing technology. If it is a face card, push it though to the right chamber. Do this three times. Then push the next card through no matter what. We will have a three or four face cards clump depending on if the fourth card is face card. Repeat this seven times. Now we have half deck highly concentrating on tens.

3. For the next three decks, if a card to be push from left chamber to right chamber is a face card, there is a pre-determined possibility that it will trigger a face card clump. Basically, the ASM will push a card half way to see if it is a face card, push back if it is not, push through if it it. Repeat this a few times, to create a face cards clump.

4. Now the four deck left in the left chamber is face card poor because ASM extracted additional face cards in the previous steps. ASM just push card by card randomly from left chamber to right chamber.

5. In the end of the shuffle, ASM can do a special maneuver that move any cards in the bottom of the shoe to the top. Note it preserves the sequence it created. The purpose is that the player won't know where the highly face card rich half deck followed by the highly small cards rich half deck is located. (Funny thing is that I once saw pit boss opened an ASM machine and discovered four decks of cards collapsed on top of the perfectly shuffled four decks. It can happen only if someone or some machine tries to move four decks at once but lose the grab.)

For this randomized 8 deck shoe, you can't beat the casino no matter where you cut it, even given 85% penetration. Assuming ASM did not perform the step 5 maneuver. The best cut is 7 decks deep. The TC will plunge in the first half deck then rising. Basically the players will flat bet because of negative TC. The worst cut is 7.5 decks deep. The TC will be very positive initially then keep rising for the next 6 decks till the end of the shoe. But most face cards are hiding behind the yellow card.

[Rudy]

I have sat on the first base and taken a peek on the operation of ASM. Saw a light like price scanner used in Target or Wal-Mart to scan bar code for price checking. I determined ASM can see if a card is an ace or ten. Then considering this algorithm to move all cards in left chamber to the empty right chamber using gravity:

1. Push a card half way, if it is a small card, push it from left chamber to right chamber. Do this step until there is 26 cards in the bottom of the right chamber. Step 1 is now complete. There are 26 cards, all small, in the bottom. ASM can go even further, to make it consists of five clump, six clump, seven clump and eight clump.

2. Push a card half way through to scan the bar code or use image processing technology. If it is a face card, push it though to the right chamber. Do this three times. Then push the next card through no matter what. We will have a three or four face cards clump depending on if the fourth card is face card. Repeat this seven times. Now we have half deck highly concentrating on tens.

3. For the next three decks, if a card to be push from left chamber to right chamber is a face card, there is a pre-determined possibility that it will trigger a face card clump. Basically, the ASM will push a card half way to see if it is a face card, push back if it is not, push through if it it. Repeat this a few times, to create a face cards clump.

4. Now the four deck left in the left chamber is face card poor because ASM extracted additional face cards in the previous steps. ASM just push card by card randomly from left chamber to right chamber.

5. In the end of the shuffle, ASM can do a special maneuver that move any cards in the bottom of the shoe to the top. Note it preserves the sequence it created. The purpose is that the player won't know where the highly face card rich half deck followed by the highly small cards rich half deck is located. (Funny thing is that I once saw pit boss opened an ASM machine and discovered four decks of cards collapsed on top of the perfectly shuffled four decks. It can happen only if someone or some machine tries to move four decks at once but lose the grab.)

For this randomized 8 deck shoe, you can't beat the casino no matter where you cut it, even given 85% penetration. Assuming ASM did not perform the step 5 maneuver. The best cut is 7 decks deep. The TC will plunge in the first half deck then rising. Basically the players will flat bet because of negative TC. The worst cut is 7.5 decks deep. The TC will be very positive initially then keep rising for the next 6 decks till the end of the shoe. But most face cards are hiding behind the yellow card.

OMG! These machines are made by aliens or illuminati! Very impressive how can you track all the entire shoe inside the machine from the first base, but is awesome how do you know how it works exactly and accurate all those machines. Knowing this, I can imagine that you always know exactly where to cut against an ASM, therefore, you should destroy the game anytime, anywhere, or at least, not to lose. You should write a book about it, and shut the f**k up to Snyder, Grosjean, etc...

[Rudy]

OMG! These machines are made by aliens or illuminati! Very impressive how can you track all the entire shoe inside the machine from the first base, but is awesome how do you know how it works exactly and accurate all those machines. Knowing this, I can imagine that you always know exactly where to cut against an ASM, therefore, you should destroy the game anytime, anywhere, or at least, not to lose. You should write a book about it, and shut the f**k up to Snyder, Grosjean, etc...

Wait! No...

[RobinHood21]

PS: For those who know Bally you should know Bry is reading this thread and LAUGHING HIS ASS OFF at the idiocy of some of the posters here.

I know Bally's. I don't know Bry because I didn't deal with purchasing supplies. And if you read my introduction thread you will see that I have a lot of experience with ASM's. The only thing that Casino personnel can change on the machines is how many decks are to be shuffled. The next time everyone plays you will notice that most of the machines being used are almost the same. Usually the only difference would be if the game being played is a carnival game, single deck bj, or multi-deck bj/baccarat. Oh ya... the only time the machines are even opened by personnel is when they malfunction (are too dusty usually), cards jams, and loading/unloading of cards. Other then that, SFFLmaster are the only people that ever work on the machines. And they routinely maintain them depending on the size of the casino and volume of customer play. When I say maintain, that includes checking what I would say is calibration. To make sure that the machines are properly shuffling.

And another note. The posts "that a certain sequence of cards can be programmed" or whatever, it would be my opinion that this could easily be switched to provide an advantage to the player. Now.. next time you go to Las Vegas or wherever everyone is playing ask the floor or even a shift manager how much money they make??? Because if they had any access to any type of sequencing there would be many cases against shady floor or mgrs for cheating to benefit themselves and not the casino they work for.