Sun Runner: Is this the end of the story !?

[Coug Fan]

> Again, according to Nersesian, the following
> police actions have been declared
> "legal" (apparently, since
> "legal" means "in conformity
> with or permitted by law", and the
> court has deemed these actions as such):

> -- Knowing that the alleged crime did not
> occur and arresting Russo and Grosjean
> regardless.

> -- Fabricating charges in order to validate
> an illegal detention by Caesars Palace.

> -- Fabricating charges in order to extort
> the return of legal winnings to Caesars
> Palace.

> -- Drafting false reports to support an
> arrest on fabricated charges.

> I guess the court is setting a precedent
> here. Nersesian says:

> "According to the Supreme Court, the
> lawsuit itself was incompetent because there
> was no right to relief against the police
> officers under the assertions made [the ones
> listed above].

> Indeed, the Supreme Court assumed these
> facts were true and found that this conduct
> was 'not so sufficiently egregious as to
> strip (the officers) of the qualified
> immunity that they are entitled to under
> statute.' "

> So the court has ruled that the police can
> take the particular actions above and still
> remain within the bounds of the law.

> What they haven't defined (apparently) is
> what actions actually would be "so
> sufficiently egregious as to strip (the
> officers) of the qualified immunity that
> they are entitled to under statute."
> I'm not sure how much worse they can get,
> though.

> Hopefully, as you said, the Supreme Court
> will set a much stricter standard for what
> actions are egregious enough.

Based on the Nevada supreme court ruling, my guess is that their standard for "egregious enough" would be something like the execution of a misdemeanor suspect who is in handcuffs. Of course, they might be OK with that if the officer thought the suspect might commit more serious crimes in the future.

Nevada is sounding more like a third world country all of the time. Gambling in Russia is sounding better all the time.

[gorilla player]

> I said discouraged, not surprised. And yes,
> it discourages me.

> My discouragement is not with the police
> (although in this case there seems blame
> enough to go around) ...

> ... it's with the Nevada Supreme Court
> man!!!

> They are close to where the buck stops for
> good, and we have a right to expect they get
> it right! It should surprise (and
> discourage) all of us when guys like this
> blow it.

Someone once said "follow the money".. From the gambler, to the casino, to the county/state to the police, the local courts and the state supreme court.

I believe that is the problem. Now I'm not an expert and don't know how the money flows to the feds, if it does. That could make it even more interesting...

If you remember the 2000 election and the florida supreme court decisions, nothing should surprise or dismay you when it comes to a state court. If you look at california court decisions, ditto. The problem is a serious one.

[ET Fan]

... even the verbalizing is not new. Nersesian has commented on this before. We've been talking about this for weeks on that "other board." You need to get out more!

"seeing it verbalized as it was in the LV paper is .. discouraging."

This is an encouraging story, not a discouraging story. The fact that Grosjean and Russo already have a $400K judgement is *highly* unusual, and not because their mistreatment was unusual in the least. The fact that Nersesian is willing to stand up and buck the system is the surprising thing. The corruption at the highest levels in Nevada is not surprising at all. It's what we've come to expect.

Now when you say: "... it's with the Nevada Supreme Court man!!! ... They are close to where the buck stops for good, and we have a right to expect they get it right! It should surprise (and discourage) all of us when guys like this blow it." you are sounding dangerously like someone who believes in our government and in our courts. Are you sure you're not a high school student? Are you really old enough to gamble? ;-) I really, really passed that stage waaaaaaaayyy back in my early twenties. It surprises the @%$#! out of me when ANY court gets ANYthing right.

ETF

[methodman]

[KidDangerous]

[Sun Runner]

> ... even the verbalizing is not new.
> Nersesian has commented on this before.
> We've been talking about this for weeks on
> that "other board." You need to
> get out more!

Probably so.

> you are sounding dangerously like someone who
> believes in our government and in our
> courts.

Yes, I do.

[gorilla player]

> Probably so.

> Yes, I do.

I also believe in our system. But I _also_ realize that the system will occasionally break down. Particularly when one of the two parties has an obscene amount of money behind him. And if there is a legal path for that money to leak from the holder (the casinos) to the ultimate authority (the courts via the state) then nothing good is going to come of that particular circumstance. The courts get _most_ things right. But you just have to realize that as the old saying goes, "money talks, bullshit walks.." Casinos have enough money to do a _lot_ of talking, and that simply isn't going to change...

[pm]

[Laughlin Marauder]

I got to witness more police discression in person in Vegas last night. I was driving on Flamingo at the crosswalk intersection between Bally's and Barbary Coast when two bike cops grabbed a non resisting, pedestrian by the neck through him face down on the ground and began beating on him... from what I could hear they were upset that he had crossed the street against the signal. They cuffed him, got a few more elbow jabs and knee jabs in, and led him away.

I went to LV Metro to file a complaint and was told, and I quote "My bike officers would never conduct themselves in such a manner unless they felt it was necessary, he could have had a weapon".

So i told her to shove it and got IAB's number and filed a complaint with them..... LV Metro, possibly the worst cops on earth.. Vegas needs a Serpico!

[ET Fan]

A true one.

Mid 70's. Nixon had resigned, we lost Vietnam, drugs had pretty much taken over the 20 something crowd. There was this 300 lb dude who just like to beat up people. He put one ~98 lb girl in the hospital for 3 months. He was proud of that. Bragged about it. Another guy needed plastic surgery. About once a week for at least 3 months I heard of another casualty.

A casual friend of mine, short, maybe 120 lbs, was drinking a beer at a local bar when this 300 lb dude came up to him and said "I'm gonna beat the shit out of you." It came out of no where. He'd never talked to this guy in his life -- but he'd heard of him.

My friend was petrified. He didn't know if this guy was going to kill him or WHAT, but he decided he'd better protect himself. So he got a paring knife from his kitchen and carried it with him in his pocket.

The 300 lb dude pounced on him in an alley behind another bar. There were a dozen witnesses. He was on top of my friend beating his ever loving brains in. Blow after blow after blow. One guy estimated 30 punches to the face. So my friend pulled out the paring knife and stabbed the guy in the chest -- once. Guy falls over dead. Apparantly, he had a heart condition.

My friend spent 2 years in prison for first degree murder. I attended the trial. The fact that this guy had beat up dozens of people was NEVER HEARD by the jury. That would have been "prejudicial." The girl who was hospitalized wanted to testify. Not permitted. Much was made of the fact that my friend admitted (he stupidly talked without getting a lawyer first) he secreted the knife on his person specifically to defend himself against this dude. To the jury, it looked like a fair fight was going on until he pulled out a lethal weapon with malice aforethought.

One thing is for sure. If he hadn't pulled out the knife, he'd be dead now instead of the other guy. Maybe he would have been better off...

I think we have a pretty good system. Probably in the top 5%. But do I BELIEVE in it? Do I TRUST it? Not even close.

F. Lee Bailey, in The Defence Never Rests, estimates about 20% of the prison population is completely innocent of the charges for which they were convicted. He blames court reliance on eye witness testimony, which he says is very unreliable. I used to think his number was a little high. I used to put it at about 10% -- until I read of all the death row prisoners in Illinois who were exonerated through DNA evidence. Fully one-half won appeals, so the governor finally commuted all their sentences.

Only people who have never been to prison believe in our court system. And those are, by definition, the LUCKY people.

ETF

[gorilla player]

> A true one.

> Mid 70's. Nixon had resigned, we lost
> Vietnam, drugs had pretty much taken over
> the 20 something crowd. There was this 300
> lb dude who just like to beat up people. He
> put one ~98 lb girl in the hospital for 3
> months. He was proud of that. Bragged about
> it. Another guy needed plastic surgery.
> About once a week for at least 3 months I
> heard of another casualty.

> A casual friend of mine, short, maybe 120
> lbs, was drinking a beer at a local bar when
> this 300 lb dude came up to him and said
> "I'm gonna beat the shit out of
> you." It came out of no where. He'd
> never talked to this guy in his life -- but
> he'd heard of him.

> My friend was petrified. He didn't know if
> this guy was going to kill him or WHAT, but
> he decided he'd better protect himself. So
> he got a paring knife from his kitchen and
> carried it with him in his pocket.

> The 300 lb dude pounced on him in an alley
> behind another bar. There were a dozen
> witnesses. He was on top of my friend
> beating his ever loving brains in. Blow
> after blow after blow. One guy estimated 30
> punches to the face. So my friend pulled out
> the paring knife and stabbed the guy in the
> chest -- once. Guy falls over dead.
> Apparantly, he had a heart condition.

> My friend spent 2 years in prison for first
> degree murder. I attended the trial. The
> fact that this guy had beat up dozens of
> people was NEVER HEARD by the jury. That
> would have been "prejudicial." The
> girl who was hospitalized wanted to testify.
> Not permitted. Much was made of the fact
> that my friend admitted (he stupidly talked
> without getting a lawyer first) he secreted
> the knife on his person specifically to
> defend himself against this dude. To the
> jury, it looked like a fair fight was going
> on until he pulled out a lethal weapon with
> malice aforethought.

> One thing is for sure. If he hadn't pulled
> out the knife, he'd be dead now instead of
> the other guy. Maybe he would have been
> better off...

> I think we have a pretty good system.
> Probably in the top 5%. But do I BELIEVE in
> it? Do I TRUST it? Not even close.

> F. Lee Bailey, in The Defence Never Rests,
> estimates about 20% of the prison population
> is completely innocent of the charges for
> which they were convicted. He blames court
> reliance on eye witness testimony, which he
> says is very unreliable. I used to think his
> number was a little high. I used to put it
> at about 10% -- until I read of all the
> death row prisoners in Illinois who were
> exonerated through DNA evidence. Fully
> one-half won appeals, so the governor
> finally commuted all their sentences.

> Only people who have never been to prison
> believe in our court system. And those are,
> by definition, the LUCKY people.

> ETF

Similar story: friend of mine from high school days (haven't seen him in years) is a Viet Nam vet, with a drinking problem due to the usual "shell-shock" syndrome. Drove years ago while drinking, hit and killed someone, was convicted of DUI and felony manslaughter. Served prison time. Got out. Turned his life around. Got a full pardon from the governor. Bought a couple of guns since he had his right to own firearms restored when the pardon completely removed the felony from his record. ATF arrested him, put him in federal prison for 2 years for "posession of a firearm by a convicted felon." Seems they don't recognize full pardons when they don't want to.

Later told him "we are sorry".

I'm sure there are thousands of those stories around...

[21 baby]

> Similar story: friend of mine from high
> school days (haven't seen him in years) is a
> Viet Nam vet, with a drinking problem due to
> the usual "shell-shock" syndrome.
> Drove years ago while drinking, hit and
> killed someone, was convicted of DUI and
> felony manslaughter. Served prison time. Got
> out. Turned his life around. Got a full
> pardon from the governor. Bought a couple of
> guns since he had his right to own firearms
> restored when the pardon completely removed
> the felony from his record. ATF arrested
> him, put him in federal prison for 2 years
> for "posession of a firearm by a
> convicted felon." Seems they don't
> recognize full pardons when they don't want
> to.

> Later told him "we are sorry".

> I'm sure there are thousands of those
> stories around...

Did the "sorry" come after the two years in jail?