As a counter, we must take into consideration of the dealer’s upcard. This is especially important for DD games. Most professionals here recommend a deviation index of TC=+1 for surrendering the hand 17 vs A; however, you seem to suggest a slightly different index of TC=+0. At the 52-card penetration, if we count the dealer’s upcard A as -1, this will bring your index to even lower TC=-1. Is my understanding correct?
In practice, I’ll still use RC for this hand decision, and for this hand, I’ll use half the power as insurance needs.
Nope.
You use a reverse index for Surrender with 17 vs A if the TC is less than +1. Once you know the dealer doesn't have BJ, you better play it in positive counts (over +1) than Surrendering.
For 17 vs 10 it's not the same. Only at a certain point (+13) it is correct to Surrender.
I suspect your thinking is "contaminated" by the European game my friend :-)
G Man
I think we use the index in the same way. That's not the point. If we look at the index from the point of view of standing, the reverse index would be 17vT.
Why do we usually say that an index is reverse? Because as the TC increases the advantage in a certain play decreases. Plays such as 88vT or 88v9 are reverse (for splitting) because as the TC increases the expected value of splitting decreases.
In the case of surrender the expected value does not change but the expected value of standing does. At least that's how I understand it.
Sincerely,
Cac
The common knowledge regarding the use of index is what Wong explained in Pro BJ.
Number: Stand (or double or split) at a count per deck equal to or greater than the number, hit (or do not split) at a count per deck less than the number.
Surrender number: Surrender if the count per deck equals or exceeds the number, do not surrender if the count per deck is less than the number.
My understanding of a "reverse index" is when you do apply the decision "the other way". For Surrender, you do not surrender at or above the index (like explained by Wong) but only if the count per deck is less than the index.
What you're saying is that the basic strategy calls for Standing 17 vs 10 BUT that there's a reverse index at +13, the point where you would not stand anymore but surrender. This is not a reverse index, this is simply the point where the surrender index kicks in. If surrender isn't offer, you would not do anything other than standing.
G Man
And while you're entitled to understand it that way, it isn't the way the rest of us define "reverse index." For all indices, players learn, "If the TC is greater than or equal to the index, insure, surrender, split, double, or stand."
So, if, all of a sudden, for any given play, we're now making the departure when we're BELOW the index, instead of above it, that is the definition of "reverse index."
No sense debating this.
Don
I do take dealer's up card into consideration.
1. Hand composition is input. (Dealer up card is not considered yet.)
2. Running count is input.
3. Number of cards remaining is input. (Dealer up card is still not considered yet.)
4. A shoe comp is determined based on running count and cards remaining. (Dealer up card is still not considered yet.)
5. Hand expected values are computed for each up card for this shoe comp. (Dealer up card is now considered in the final count and one fewer cards remain.)
6. To generate an index, the range of all possible running counts is considered.
Below shows a calculation for a hand of T-7 with 52 cards remaining before up card is dealt. Running count is -13 before up card is dealt. Running count after up card is dealt depends on its tag. After an up card of ace is dealt running count is -14 and there are 51 cards remaining. Input rules are dealer hits soft 17, NDAS, LS allowed versus A and T, surrender allowed versus 2-9.
To get total dependent indexes the hand composition is not considered, only the up card versus an input total. Total dependent index comes out to RC<1 for 52 cards remaining before up card (LS 17 vs ace).Code:Number of decks: 2 Count tags {1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,0,0,0,1} Player hand composition: 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 1: Hard 17, 2 cards After player hand is dealt - Cards remaining: 52, Running count: -13 Subgroup removals: No subgroups are defined Shoe comp (A-5): {2.7996, 5.3296, 5.3296, 5.3296, 5.3296} Shoe comp (6-10): {5.3296, 3.5621, 4.071, 4.071, 10.848} After up card is dealt - Cards remaining: 51 Running count (up card 1 to 10): {-14,-12,-12,-12,-12,-12,-13,-13,-13,-14} Up card Stand Hit Double Split 1 Split 2 Split 3 Surr Strat 1 -69.317 -60.990 -100.709 -60.636 surr 2 -25.820 -46.127 -92.254 -50.000 stand 3 -23.789 -46.206 -92.412 -50.000 stand 4 -20.952 -46.625 -93.249 -50.000 stand 5 -19.302 -42.725 -85.450 -50.000 stand 6 -16.801 -42.999 -85.997 -50.000 stand 7 -18.315 -39.144 -78.289 -50.000 stand 8 -35.871 -39.634 -79.267 -50.000 stand 9 -37.807 -42.983 -85.966 -50.000 stand 10 -41.497 -48.363 -91.237 -52.745 stand Overall hand EV vs all upcards: -29.8768 Press c or C for EV conditioned on no dealer blackjack, any other key to exit
That describes my methodology about as simply as I can. It allows for computing all up cards at once.
k_c
Last edited by k_c; 05-19-2022 at 07:00 PM.
Those are unconditional EVs. If I press 'c' to display EV conditioned on no dealer BJ:
Now if I press 'u' EVs revert to previous display.Code:Number of decks: 2 Count tags {1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,0,0,0,1} Player hand composition: 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 1: Hard 17, 2 cards After player hand is dealt - Cards remaining: 52, Running count: -13 Subgroup removals: No subgroups are defined Shoe comp (A-5): {2.800, 5.330, 5.330, 5.330, 5.330} Shoe comp (6-10): {5.330, 3.562, 4.071, 4.071, 10.848} After up card is dealt - Cards remaining: 51 Running count (up card 1 to 10): {-14,-12,-12,-12,-12,-12,-13,-13,-13,-14} Up card Stand Hit Double Split 1 Split 2 Split 3 Surr Strat 1 -61.027 -50.450 -100.901 -50.000 surr 2 -25.820 -46.127 -92.254 -50.000 stand 3 -23.789 -46.206 -92.412 -50.000 stand 4 -20.952 -46.625 -93.249 -50.000 stand 5 -19.302 -42.725 -85.450 -50.000 stand 6 -16.801 -42.999 -85.997 -50.000 stand 7 -18.315 -39.144 -78.289 -50.000 stand 8 -35.871 -39.634 -79.267 -50.000 stand 9 -37.807 -42.983 -85.966 -50.000 stand 10 -38.099 -45.364 -90.728 -50.000 stand Overall hand EV vs all upcards: -29.8768 Press u or U to display unconditional EV, any other key to exit
Strategies can be obtained from either option.
k_c
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