No we don't. Initially I had said that we do, which was incorrect.
I just thought about this again and got some new ideas. When counting card in hit-17 6-deck games, I surrender hard 17 vs A when TC<=+2 but stand when TC>+3. When counting card in stand-17 6-deck games, I do not have an index for the hand of hard 17 vs A.
However, one more thing still bothers me. A few 2-deck hit-17 games offer the surrender option. So, what is the surrender index for the hand in this game? Thank you in advance!
Some precision here:
In H17 games, you should Surrender 17 vs A when TC<+2 and Stand when TC =>+2
In S17 games, you should Surrender 17 vs A when TC<-4 and Stand when TC=>-4
For the DD H17 LS games, you Surrender 17 vs A when TC<+1 and Stand when TC=>+1
Note: For all these decisions, there's a point (very low TC) where you will start Hitting instead of Surrendering.
In S17 shoes: if TC <= -10
In H17 shoes: Can't tell but a lot less than -10
In DD H17 games: if TC <= -16
Last edited by G Man; 05-17-2022 at 06:18 AM.
G Man
This is detailed data for a hand of T-7 vs. ace, 2 decks, h17, late surrender using combinatorial analysis using HiLo. It includes number of cards remaining before up card is dealt, running counts to surrender/not surrender, and a calculated reference to true count at the surrender points. It would be a bit more accurate to use number of cards remaining after up card is dealt. However my CA computes before up card so I can compute all up cards at once.
Basically it shows for the most part to late surrender at a running count of <0 for most of the shoe and <-1 toward the end of shoe.
Referencing true count, it shows to late surrender for an approximate range of TC >=-15 to <0 for the largest portion of the shoe.
It also shows to late surrender for some extremely positive counts which are unlikely to be encountered.
k_cCode:T-7 v ace, 2 decks, h17, late surrender Cards (before up card) RC TC ref 102-100 r ---- 99 <0, >=1 <0, >=.53 98 <1, >=2 <.54, >=1.07 97 <2 <1.08 96-84 <1 <.55 to <.63 83 <0 <0 81 <0, >=19 <0, >=12.35 80 <0, >=20 <0, >=13.16 79 <0, >=21 <0, >=14. 78-77 <0, >=22 <0, >=14.86 to 15.05 76 <0, >=23 <0, >=15.95 75-74 <0, >=24 <0, >=16.86 to 17.10 73 <-30, >=-23, <0, >=25 <-21.67, >=-16.61 to <0, >=18.06 72 >=-22, <0, >=25 >=-16.11 to <0, >=18.31 71 >=-21, <0, >=26 >=-15.60 to <0, >=19.31 70 >=-21, <0, >=27 >=-15.83 to <0, >=20.35 69 >=-20, <0, >=27 >=-15.29 to <0, >=20.65 68 >=-20, <0, >=28 >=-15.52 to <0, >=21.73 67-66 >=-19, <0, >=28 (>=-14.97, >=-15.20) to <0, (>=22.06, >=22.40) 65-64 >=-18, <0, >=29 (>=-14.63, >=-14.86) to <0, (>=23.56, >=23.94) 63 >=-18, <0, >=30 >=15.10 to <0, >=25.16 62-61 >=-17, <0, >=30 (>=-14.49, >=-14.73) to <0, (>=25.57, >=26.) 60 >=-17, <0, >=31 >=-14.98 to <0, >=27.32 59-58 >=-16, <0, >=31 (>=-14.34, >=-14.60) to <0, (>=27.79, >=28.28) 57 >=-16, <0, >=32 >=-14.86 to <0, >=29.72 56 >=-15, <0, >=32 >=-14,18 to <0, >=30.25 55-53 >=-15, <0, >=33 (>=-14.44, >=-14.72, >=-15.) to <0, (>=31.78, >=32.28, >=33.) 52 >=-14, <0, >=34 >=14.27 to <0, >=34,67 51-50 >=-14, <0, >=35 (>=-14.56, >=-14.86) to <0, (>=36.40, >=37.14) 49 >=-13, <0, >=38 >=-14.08 to <0, >=41.17 48-46 >=-13, <0 (>=-14.38, >=-14.70, >=-15.02) to <0 45-42 >=-12, <0 (>=-14.18, >=-14.51, >=-14.86, >=-15.22) to <0 41-38 >=-11, <0 (>=-14.30, >=-14.67, >=-15.05, >=-15.46) to <0 37-36 >=-10, <0 (>=-14.44, >=-14.86) to <0 35-34 >=-10, <-1 (>=-15.29, >=-15.76) to (<-1.53, <-1.58) 33-30 >=-9, <-1 (>=-14.63, >=-15.10, >=-15.60, >=-16.14) to (<-1.63, <-1.68, <-1.73, <-1.79) 29-26 >=-8, <-1 (>=-14.85, >=-15.41, >=-16., >=-16.64) to (<-1.86, <-1.93, <-2., <-2.08) 25-22 >=-7, <-1 (>=-15.17, >=-15.83, >=-16.55, >=-17.33) to (<-2.17, <-2.26, <-2.36, <-2.48) 21-17 >=-6, <-1 (>=-15.60, >=-16.42, >=-17.33, >=-18.35, >=-19.5) to (<-2.6, <-2.74, <-2.89, <-3.06, <-3.25) 16-12 >=-5, <-1 (>=-17.33, >=-18.57, >=-20., >=-21.67, >=-23.64) to (<-3.47, <-3.71, <-4., <-4.33, <-4.73) 11-9 >=-4, <0 (>=-20.80, >=-23.11, >=-26.) to <0 8-7 >=-4, <1 (>=-29.71, >=-34.67) to (<7.43, <8.67)
Wonderful work! I will use RC for this hand decision based on your results, but I found a tiny typo in this part of your code. Shouldn’t the TC be >=-14.27 to <0 ? Can you confirm? See below
“52 >=-14, <0, >=34 >=14.27 to <0, >=34,67”
It seems to me a minus sign is missing in front of the number 14.27.
Last edited by aceside; 05-18-2022 at 07:06 AM.
Just a reminder that we are talking about the situation where you can only surrender or stand.
For a DD H17 game:
- Always surrender 16 or less vs 8, 9, T and A (same as the shoe game)
- Surrender 17 vs T at TC >= 13 (otherwise stand)
- Surrender 17 vs A at TC < 1 (otherwise stand)
Notice that 17 vs A is a reverse index.
Yes, there should be a minus sign. Input is 52 cards remaining before up card is dealt and input hand is T-7. After up card 51 cards remain and LS RC index turned out to be -14 for up card of ace and hand of T-7. TC = -14*52/51 = -14.27. In general TC = 52*RC/(cards remaining).
k_c
Bookmarks