How to Approach a Situation?

[Freightman]

Two years ago a student of mine, (thrilled with his Hi-Opt II
results),comp'd me "coast-to-coast", as we used to say,
He simply decided to celebrate his win that day (>$36,000).

He told me that he had been playing for years at a casino
that permitted him to bet every spot on the table without
even requiring higher minimums. He said that he had been
playing spreading aggressively for several years but was
having trouble winning that was near his e.v. He was using
the RedSeven should have amazing results. So he spread
from $25 to all seven (7) spots at $500 each. His spread was
from $25 to $500 X 7 = $3,500 (140 to 1)

He had told me that there was NO heat. That paved the way for
me to say: "There's NO heat. Until there IS!"

I have said that dozens of times to dozens of my students.

Last year this casino made huge changes and now they are a
SweatBox. This was all because a Card Counter (from Canada)
with deep pockets completely burned out the game. He was
there for a week at a time. He was almost as aggressive as my
guy was. The important difference is that he was, (in behavior,
appearance, and style), a stereotype Card Counter. The trouble
was that he was playing on all 3 shifts, way too many hours,
winning far too much money, with hardly a toke!

My guy was incapable of getting the greedy bastard to "instantly
cease and desist" from "burning out" a really nice "Honey Pot".

What's your point?
I note your commentary regarding a stereotypical Canadian card counter, with deep pockets, crushing some honeypot, somewhere within the bowels of the USA.

I further note, with disdain, that my General locale was raped and pillaged by Yankee stereotypical card counters with deep pockets within the glorious boundaries of The Dominion of Canada.

Perhaps we should build a wall between our great nations. They work - the Chinese built a wall 4000 years ago, and they still don't have any Mexicans. We can build one, and keep out greedy Yankee card counters.

Greed is universal.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

You, the Ambassador from the frozen Kingdom, asked me "What's your point?" There is not much of a point here, but scrolling through this thread there was just a little blackjack discussion and there were references to "playing all 7 boxes" and I was just sitting back enjoying a mango Blue Moon beer (and a joint that was pre-rolled and dipped in an extraction of pure THC) It brought up a memorable experience that was centered upon betting "all 7 boxes."

You did note that "Greed is Universal".
I concur. We ought to be saying that it
is destructively ubiquitous in the casino
environment.


Greed Kills. Universal Greed kills quickly.

[Freightman]

There is not much of a point here, but scrolling through this
thread there was just a little blackjack discussion and there
were references to "playing all 7 boxes" and I was just sitting back enjoying a mango Blue Moon beer (and a joint that was pre-rolled and dipped in an extraction of pure THC) It brought up a memorable experience centered upon betting "all 7 boxes."

Methinks my concept of playing all 7 boxes, is different than yours
Mind you, at this stage, methinks I also need more time.

Oh - memories of my youth.

[Frank Galvin]

Three, I am afraid you are most likely right on this one.

BoSox, fear not. Even a broken clock (or dare I say, record), is right twice per day.

[Jugglingexpert]

This strategy is from Kat's book about Pontoon etc. Kat wrote about her using pretty much this exact strategy when they believed the game couldn't be beaten. Of course the same thing COULD be done at BJ but they wouldn't put up with it. The OP wouldn't have to worry about what to do because the casino would end this guy for him. It works better in Pontoon because covariance is a lot lower.

Interesting story about Pantoon. I've never played but I see how outside strategies could be applied to blackjack and be somewhat profitable. It seems the more aggressive the better the result, that is, if you have the bankroll to back it up. For those that don't, such as me, I would just like to get some table experience whether it ends up costing me or not. In the end, we're all just here because we like blackjack, are we not?

[Bushie]

No this was BJ, not Pontoon, for the naysayers.

[Dbs6582]

No this was BJ, not Pontoon, for the naysayers.

Not that it matters but that's what I thought. I also didn't think it was gin rummy. I was just making a joke for all the people who thought it might be pontoon. You'd have said it's pontoon if it was pontom. People on this site should suspect any OP is taking about BJ unless otherwise noted. The give away is the sites name "Blackjacktheform"

btw, the thread you started is one of the most popular since I joined. It's now been viewed close to 4,000 times and had 136 replies. Who knew Australian BJ would be so popular here in NA and this unknown counter would touch off such an interesting debate.

Great post! I hope things have been going better down there for you, and you and this unknown counter have found a way to coexist.

[davethebuilder]

A fair bit of confusion in this thread and some of it stems from the different playing rules and conditions between America and Australia. In the US there are around 1000 casinos(commercial, tribal and riverboat) but in Australia there are only 13 commercial casinos in total. Most states only have one but Bushie’s state has two and their shoe Blackjack games can get very crowded so it is not always possible to play heads up or two hands against the dealer, especially in peak times and you cannot always choose your tablemates. When playing the aim is to maximise win rate and when playing at an advantage a player needs to receive the optimal share of the cards. Horizontal spreading and back betting multiple boxes on a full table will get you the cards but it slows down the game and therefore adversely affects a players win rate as well as substantially increasing risk and bankroll requirements.

In Australia, both recreational and skilled players play up to 7 boxes simultaneously. Despite the potential heat that this may cause it does make some sense if you have a substantial advantage in the game at this point, the table is crowded and there are no other tables available. Still, it can be problematic playing this way if you have to back bet because you cannot know for sure how the other players will act and incorrect decisions at this point can be costly. One way around this is to obtain consent from the front bettor allowing you to make the playing decision. Another way is if two or more AP’s, working as a team, occupy several boxes and correctly size their bets according to how many boxes they are playing as well as achieving the correct bet size ratio between the front and back bet.

Ideally, in Bushie’s situation I would prefer leaving the casino and returning in off peak times to play one or two boxes against the dealer and spreading vertically. It’s quieter, I can think, the risk is lower, I can control the game speed, I am less affected by other players actions and with this style of playing I can receive more rounds per shoe, especially in a NHC game, but sometimes it’s just not possible. When playing alone or with a partner the only time I spread to more than two boxes is if I have a clear advantage and the cut card is near. This has the effect of increasing the penetration and therefore my win rate.

In summary, by utilising our rules and playing conditions it is possible for two advantage players to comfortably co-exist at the same table and for the casino to be relatively clueless about it.

[Dbs6582]

A fair bit of confusion in this thread and some of it stems from the different playing rules and conditions between America and Australia. In the US there are around 1000 casinos(commercial, tribal and riverboat) but in Australia there are only 13 commercial casinos in total. Most states only have one but Bushie’s state has two and their shoe Blackjack games can get very crowded so it is not always possible to play heads up or two hands against the dealer, especially in peak times and you cannot always choose your tablemates. When playing the aim is to maximise win rate and when playing at an advantage a player needs to receive the optimal share of the cards. Horizontal spreading and back betting multiple boxes on a full table will get you the cards but it slows down the game and therefore adversely affects a players win rate as well as substantially increasing risk and bankroll requirements.

In Australia, both recreational and skilled players play up to 7 boxes simultaneously. Despite the potential heat that this may cause it does make some sense if you have a substantial advantage in the game at this point, the table is crowded and there are no other tables available. Still, it can be problematic playing this way if you have to back bet because you cannot know for sure how the other players will act and incorrect decisions at this point can be costly. One way around this is to obtain consent from the front bettor allowing you to make the playing decision. Another way is if two or more AP’s, working as a team, occupy several boxes and correctly size their bets according to how many boxes they are playing as well as achieving the correct bet size ratio between the front and back bet.

Ideally, in Bushie’s situation I would prefer leaving the casino and returning in off peak times to play one or two boxes against the dealer and spreading vertically. It’s quieter, I can think, the risk is lower, I can control the game speed, I am less affected by other players actions and with this style of playing I can receive more rounds per shoe, especially in a NHC game, but sometimes it’s just not possible. When playing alone or with a partner the only time I spread to more than two boxes is if I have a clear advantage and the cut card is near. This has the effect of increasing the penetration and therefore my win rate.

In summary, by utilising our rules and playing conditions it is possible for two advantage players to comfortably co-exist at the same table and for the casino to be relatively clueless about it.

Great post! Thanks for the clarification!

[Sharky]

The reseon this thread struck a nerve with me is because I never read so many posts by APs I typically respect make so many comments that made no sense and boarded on ploppy logic. The exception was RC. It was good to see one AP that got it..

Perhaps you need to reread the thread, pal

..sorry, but I don't feel I need to continue repeating myself 20 times in 50 different ways like many of these ass clowns...once should suffice

[RS]

Logic. The casino allowed the OP to play, that is all you need to know! I am sure that the casino had a far better evaluation of the man than Bushie's short observation. Just another player with big dreams, and living in fantasy land.

So if a casino allows me to play, that means I’m not playing with an advantage? If a casino allows you to play, do you think to yourself, “I’m not playing as accurately as I think I should be or else they would’ve kicked me out by now.”?

Next time I play blackjack, I’ll be sure to enter my generated EV as a negative number, because the casino allowed me to play! If they’re letting me play, I must be playing with a disadvantage!

[BoSox]

So if a casino allows me to play, that means I’m not playing with an advantage? If a casino allows you to play, do you think to yourself, “I’m not playing as accurately as I think I should be or else they would’ve kicked me out by now.”?

Next time I play blackjack, I’ll be sure to enter my generated EV as a negative number, because the casino allowed me to play! If they’re letting me play, I must be playing with a disadvantage!

Would you agree the OP in question was playing in a very unusual fashion? Not too many players play that way, so please do not try to make this a normal situation. Thank God I know better than to deal with someone who is not thinking rational at the moment.

[Dbs6582]

Would you agree the OP in question was playing in a very unusual fashion? Not too many players play that way, so please do not try to make this a normal situation. Thank God I know better than to deal with someone who is not thinking rational at the moment.

Bosox, did you read Davethebuilder's post? He said this counter's play is not unusual. This is common in Australia. "In Australia, both recreational and skilled players play up to 7 boxes simultaneously." Flash also mentioned he had a student who spread to 7 hands in positive counts. The bottom line is if you spread to 2, 3 or 7 boxes in positive counts you still have an advantage. It doesn't matter if you play BJ in America or Australia, the math is the same. Don't feel bad, Freightman also had a hard time understanding this concept.