Instant Heat when Unrated

**Ryemo** · 03-25-2017, 07:55 AM

Xothan,

If your name is clean from the databases, then I would not play rated. You mentioned playing in the Vegas area. Is that where you live/play? If so, I would DEFINITELY not play rated! Why risk soiling your name for some shitty comps? If you live in the Vegas region, you won't need to do much traveling to play, so the room comps would be meaningless for you anyway.

**Ryemo** · 03-25-2017, 08:17 AM

Zee,

Your advice sucks. The only reason you haven't experienced any issues so far is because your game is weak, not because you're some rat holing pro. No casino on earth should sweat your 2x90 max bets on 6D.

For anyone playing a winning game, playing rated WILL present problems eventually! Believe me, I know first hand. Player's cards don't stop back offs! They just delay them. Hell, sometimes they barely delay them.

**Joe Mama** · 03-25-2017, 08:49 AM

I'm really conflicted on this. Playing unrated certainly draws heat at a lot of places, but being 86ed where they have you identified can really suck. I wonder if what to do may depend on certain factors, i.e. play unrated and up your spread on road trips where you appear infrequently. Play rated and within tolerances at you local stores. Old farts like me may get away with playing rated a lot easier than some 20-something.

**Stealth** · 03-25-2017, 09:36 AM

Originally Posted by Joe Mama

Old farts like me may get away with playing rated a lot easier than some 20-something.

I too am an old fart, and my advice is not about how long you can get away with playing rated. We all have differing abilities to get away with it for some period. I am just informing (not suggesting) you that the loss of EV from the coming back off is much larger than the plus EV from all the comps. It is a mathematical fact. Short term gain does not exceed long term value!

I refer to your style of play as Kamikaze, do all the damage you can and then crash and burn. The difference is that Kamikaze's intended to crash and burn from the start, I don't think you did.

Upon moving to Vegas I played rated at most casinos for over 4 years and now I am now barred from blackjack at more casinos than I care to name. Many of those are collateral effects of being backed off at one and flyered or data based by the others. You can kid yourself and think I am different from you but if your game is a winner you will pay this price.

**ZeeBabar** · 03-25-2017, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by Stealth

I too am an old fart, and my advice is not about how long you can get away with playing rated. We all have differing abilities to get away with it for some period. I am just informing (not suggesting) you that the loss of EV from the coming back off is much larger than the plus EV from all the comps. It is a mathematical fact. Short term gain does not exceed long term value!

I refer to your style of play as Kamikaze, do all the damage you can and then crash and burn. The difference is that Kamikaze's intended to crash and burn from the start, I don't think you did.

Upon moving to Vegas I played rated at most casinos for over 4 years and now I am now barred from blackjack at more casinos than I care to name. Many of those are collateral effects of being backed off at one and flyered or data based by the others. You can kid yourself and think I am different from you but if your game is a winner you will pay this price.

maybe you and Ryemo are right, Stealth. Maybe it's an issue of me finding it so disconcerting, particularly at slow times, when there is a lot of attention focussed by the pit on me and the relative uninterest when I am playing rated.

I don't know the stakes the OP plays but with my lower stakes and max bet of under $200, it's so much easier to play rated.

I had had assumed that they may simply withdraw my comps (or lower them) if their record showed that I was not losing and was ahead. Otherwise, like at NYNY, they may simply tell me to not play BJ in their store anymore. I did not think that they might flyer and ban me at all their properties.

**BJGenius007** · 03-25-2017, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by ZeeBabar

At best, we win 60% of the time, lose 40% of the time. When we lose, we ensure they note our losses (I check how much they have got me down for, generally get them to add a couple hundreds saying they did not note it, that the dealer on break called out but they did not hear it. I ask for meal comp).

It is just you. We counters won 90% at least. If someone needs to play it all, it may drop to 80% or 75%. But 60% is not acceptable.

**Freightman** · 03-25-2017, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by BJGenius007

It is just you. We counters won 90% at least. If someone needs to play it all, it may drop to 80% pr 75%. But 60% is not acceptable.

Depending on style of play, even under 50% can be lucrative. Keep in mind that's it is not all that difficult to manipulate win percentages. In fact, we do it all the time.

Want proof? Play 100 sessions at exactly 60 minutes - no more, no less. When you've done that, come back with your almost certain revised comments.

**Freightman** · 03-25-2017, 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by Freightman

Depending on style of play, even under 50% can be lucrative. Keep in mind that's it is not all that difficult to manipulate win percentages. In fact, we do it all the time.

Want proof? Play 100 sessions at exactly 60 minutes - no more, no less. When you've done that, come back with your almost certain revised comments.

Further, I think 60-40 is about average for most counters. I've had 80% years at high EV. I've consistently been 70%. If you've consistently 80-90%, you're headed for a fall one way or the other.

**ZeeBabar** · 03-25-2017, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by BJGenius007

It is just you. We counters won 90% at least. If someone needs to play it all, it may drop to 80% pr 75%. But 60% is not acceptable.

there was a recent poll on this site and most counters were under 60% of the sessions played. Now, if you kept time constant (that is, you played all sessions at 45 minutes or 60 minutes), the win percentage will likely be under 60%. If you stuck around ensuring you win, then you can play a marathon session or two, wait till you dig out of holes and claim an 80% win rate. More and more counters keep their session to short ones and it's near impossible to get a 80% success rate playing short sessions.

in any case, playing rated, you can ensure you book losing sessions often, then return and win the next session. You are trying to ensure that your record shows you as a lucky gambler. If they pull up a record of a rated player and his sessions are random wins and loses, they might give him a longer rope. If the record shows 8-9 wins and a random loss, then they have you.

**Freightman** · 03-25-2017, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by ZeeBabar

there was a recent poll on this site and most counters were under 60% of the sessions played. Now, if you kept time constant (that is, you played all sessions at 45 minutes or 60 minutes), the win percentage will likely be under 60%.

Closer to 50% on exactly 45 minute or 60 minute sessions.

**vagabond** · 03-25-2017, 07:00 PM

Originally Posted by Freightman

Leave the burping and farting for the pros

Who knew I was such a natural pro from the beginning?

It sounds like Xothan needs to grow thicker skin and dish some annoying shit back at the pit. If the pit is harassing you that badly immediately upon sight then how is it worth continuing to play? You could always make some non-basic strategy mistakes that don't actually cost much EV.

**Stealth** · 03-25-2017, 10:11 PM

Originally Posted by BJGenius007

It is just you. We counters won 90% at least. If someone needs to play it all, it may drop to 80% or 75%. But 60% is not acceptable.

Was this said in jest?

60% is not only acceptable it is the norm or at least it is in the over 6,000 sessions (All play, spot, BP, 2, 6, 8 deck) I have been involved with.

90% is a utopian dream!

**Bingo1** · 03-26-2017, 09:19 AM

If I know what I know now I would have never gotten a players card at any casino.The dealers and especially pit bosses at any casino ,can be kind of pesky asking for a players card.I call it info gathering.The casinos keep info on your wins and losses and playing habits(going often to blackjack tables) and give you free crapolla in return you don't get something for nothing.I make it a habit going to cash window and buying chips before hand ,and I don't display all the chips on the gaming table. This usually the prevents dealer and pit boss from asking for a players card.I look like I have been playing at the casino for a while. Depending on casino,I cash in under a certain amount of chips ,so they don't check my ID.

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