Which Count To Use

[Bodarc]

Which Count To Use

One of the first questions a new member usually asks is “Which count should I use?” This often starts a long thread with individuals advising him on the advantages and disadvantages of a certain count. Some recommend extremely complicated counts and some go by the KISS or keep it simple theory. In this post, I’ll try to point out other factors that will help you decide on the count that is best for you.


An open inquiring mind – The best thing you can do to increase your EV or expected value and decrease variance is to keep your eyes open and look around. You never know what you’ll find if you do this. When you walk into a casino, pay close attention. Watch the dealers as they shuffle. Some dealers will give you better penetration. A few cards dealt further in the deck can over ride any advantage you’ll gain from using a stronger count. Some dealers are faster and will give you more rounds per hour and some will sometimes give you a glimpse of a card every now and then. You should also be concentrating on learning. There are many blackjack sites that have had almost any question you can think of asked before and answered by the most knowledgeable players of the game. Spend time reviewing the archives of this forum and others.


Perfect play - You should be able to play your game perfectly. This means you know basic strategy, your count, your indices, and your betting strategy inside and out. You should also be able to do all of this while keeping up with payoffs and dealer errors. One or two incorrect payoffs or dealer errors can ruin any advantage of a stronger count. You should be able to do all of this without moving your lips, looking around the table, taking too long to make a decision or concentrating so hard you can’t act in a natural manner.


Your association with others - Are you a loner or do you have a friend you like to play with? The answer to that question may have a bearing on the count you choose. If you do play with others, more than likely it is to your advantage that all of you use the same count. Doing so will make signaling and future team play possible.


How often do you play – There are locations that don’t have good games or any games available at all. Difficult counts require practice to stay in top form. If you are one of those unlucky individuals and only take a few trips a year, you will find it difficult to use one of the more advanced counts without a lot of practice on a simulated game. However, if you have good games available and play often, an advanced count may suit you quite well.


Other opportunities – As you become more advanced, there may be opportunities other than straight counting that require thought. Some of these advanced tactics are hole carding, shuffle tracking and card sequencing. If you add the difficulties of these opportunities to the requirements of your count, in some cases it may be advisable to drop from a more difficult count to a simpler one. It all depends on your goals and opportunities.


Every individual is different. In all endeavors, there are people who naturally adapt and people who struggle to become proficient. No one can really tell you which count to use. They can tell you which count they use and why, but they are not you. You’ll make many decisions each day playing blackjack and you have to make these decisions yourself. Assess yourself, your opportunities available and make the decision of the count to use taking into account the above notes.


Now go out and play it “perfectly”.

[Tstedstevens]

Very helpful. Thanks
-Ted


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Frank Galvin]

+1 to Bodarc's message and insight!!!

[LoneWoLF]

Irrelevant thread. The only way we can stop new guys always asking about which count to use is simply not talking about it anymore. Can you imagine how much better everyone would be off if we focused on the things that matter? Like how to get in hours and not get thrown out? How to avoid heat, while getting the money down? Counting multiple tables simultaneously? Playing short sessions and high penetration games? Knowing how to manipulate the casino while laying big bets down? Can you imagine if for every "which count" thread we discussed how to avoid heat and get away with it, how much better off everyone would be? Jesus. Wake up kids. Focus on things that matter. If this was the 70s or 80s where deeply dealt single and double deck games were still around, I can understand some of the concerns on whether or not a side count would be suitable, but guess what it's now all about the shoe games if you want to make any decent money without getting tossed in a week. And guess what? The way to beat shoe games is not with 100 side counts, you know why? Because it doesnt make a difference and people cant do it accurately enough to warrant the effort and even if they could, it's still irrelevant and you should be focusing on things that actually get you the money.

[Norm]

So, talk about what you want to talk about in threads about those subjects. But, don't tell other people to stop talking about what they want to talk about.

[Stealth]

Irrelevant thread.

You may think this forum exist exclusively to answer your mundane questions or respond to your self aggrandizing comments. But you should understand (I do not expect you to) that many new counter frequent these topics and they do heve need for the type of guidance put forth by Bodarc and others.

I am one who believes the topics you list are more important than "which count you use" but you must have already made the decision about your count and be proficient in its use. I also do not like the skewed perspectives by many offered with both complex and simple counts but they all provide some semblance of guidance if you are capable of filtering them properly.

Now, telling me, and most of the other seasoned players on here, to "wake up kids" is a joke that you may be incapable of understanding.

Now I suggest you go restudy your proposed "go to Las Vegas and kill em strategy" as you are about to become fodder unless you wake up.

[Stealth]

Empheric evidence suggets too small of a sample. Therefore a Disadvantage. Conversely, non-empheric suggest a threshold that may or may not happen in your lifetime...or passed down to your grandsons great grandsons lifetime for that matter. Solution? Find advantages that will apply in your lifetime.

Do what? Went right over my head!

[Dog Hand]

Empheric...<snip>

moses,

What is "Empheric"?

Dog Hand

[ZenMaster_Flash]

"empirical"

[LoneWoLF]

You may think this forum exist exclusively to answer your mundane questions or respond to your self aggrandizing comments. But you should understand (I do not expect you to) that many new counter frequent these topics and they do heve need for the type of guidance put forth by Bodarc and others.

I am one who believes the topics you list are more important than "which count you use" but you must have already made the decision about your count and be proficient in its use. I also do not like the skewed perspectives by many offered with both complex and simple counts but they all provide some semblance of guidance if you are capable of filtering them properly.

Now, telling me, and most of the other seasoned players on here, to "wake up kids" is a joke that you may be incapable of understanding.

Now I suggest you go restudy your proposed "go to Las Vegas and kill em strategy" as you are about to become fodder unless you wake up.

Thanks but no thanks. I know what I need to do.

[LoneWoLF]

So, talk about what you want to talk about in threads about those subjects. But, don't tell other people to stop talking about what they want to talk about.

So what you're basically saying is, you dont care about leading newbies down the wrong path, but as long as they socialize and bring activity to your site, you're fine with it? Makes sense, thanks.

[Norm]

Post after post after post saying the same damn thing.

Look, this is a forum. I will NOT censor polite opinions and polite discussion. It is disruptive to interrupt every discussion you don't like. And I will NOT dumb this forum down so that it is only for beginners. This is an AP forum -- not a HiLo forum. It's like going to a physics forum and interrupting every discussion of Quantum Mechanics with complaints that it is misleading to kids studying Newton.

It is not misleading to talk about subjects other than HiLo.

[Ryemo]

Good post, Bodarc.

Something I would add:

The level or complexity of your count will not define your success as an advantage player. Just because you're using Hi Opt II w/ASC will not guarantee you AP success. And just because you employ the Hi Lo system, that doesn't automatically classify you as an amateur either! I know successful APs (people who have experienced long term success) who are using very simple counts and blasting 2x$1,000 at the tables. At the same time, I know others who are red-chipping amateurs that use complex counts.

There are so many other aspects to counting cards successfully and I think the type of count you employ barely scratches the surface. THESE are the things new players should really concern themselves with:

1) How well do you know your count system? Well enough so when some casino employee or patron sparks up conversation, you can easily converse without losing the count?

2) How well do you know your basic strategy and your indices? You need to know your strategy cold! No exceptions!

3) How well do you handle the swings? Do you allow your emotions to dictate your play? If so, then maybe you're betting too much. How will you emotionally handle a big loss? If your stakes are already low and you still can't psychologically handle the swings, then maybe this game isn't for you.

4) How is your casino comportment? Do you look like you're concentrating too much? Does it just look like "you don't belong" at the tables? You need to feel comfortable and try to emulate other gambling patrons. Don't stick out like a sore thumb.

5) How well do you assess heat? For a low stakes player, this might not be much of a concern, but most definitely for mid-rollers and above. You can't be so consumed with what you're doing and ignore your surroundings. If you do, this will inevitably lead to more BOs.

6) How good is your bankroll management? You could employ the fanciest count on earth, but if you can't properly manage your BR, you WILL go bust! Simple.

7) What betting ramps and unit sizes will you use? Are you utilizing the aid of software? Do you understand what spread must be employed to beat your specific game and do you understand the concept of RoR? If you aren't currently using software, you should start now! Don't go out there and start betting blindly!

8) If you do end up getting backed off or counter-measured, how will you handle it? Are you aware of the important "rule of thumbs" you must follow in order to not make a bad situation even worse?


Everything I just listed above is far more important than banging your head up against a wall, trying to figure out which count is "the best" IMHO. Master everything else first, then decide if you want to move up to higher level count. That's my 2¢.