6 & 8 shoe best system

[Ryemo]

zee I don't know what your taking about.. def heat in St Louis in some stores.


Go play River City and spread and see what happens.

That place threw me into OSN and counter-measured me numerous times. And Zee also mentioned East St Louis, which he's also wrong about that too. That place backed me off and escorted me off the property.

It's true that some places in the Midwest can be a little more tolerant (compared to Vegas maybe), but they aren't stupid either. I've been counter-measured in every St Louis casino multiple times, most of the KC casinos, and backed off from casinos in IA and East St Louis, as Zee mentions. But most of these places will probably not bother Zee because I'm not convinced he's playing a strong enough game. Why else would the same store left him play day after day with no heat?

[ZeeBabar]

That place threw me into OSN and counter-measured me numerous times. And Zee also mentioned East St Louis, which he's also wrong about that too. That place backed me off and escorted me off the property.

It's true that some places in the Midwest can be a little more tolerant (compared to Vegas maybe), but they aren't stupid either. I've been counter-measured in every St Louis casino multiple times, most of the KC casinos, and backed off from casinos in IA and East St Louis, as Zee mentions. But most of these places will probably not bother Zee because I'm not convinced he's playing a strong enough game. Why else would the same store left him play day after day with no heat?

because I am never greedy at local places. I use a 1-7 DD spread, a 1-10 6 deck spread but more importantly, I have never tried to win more than $1200 in any single session. I am perfectly content leaving with $100-$500 wins at any one session. I don't care if the dealer is providing deep penn or I am alone at the table, I leave with small wins and when I lose, I ensure they note that I lost. I rathole a bit. They see me as a rich retired person who is pleasant and polite with everyone and not a threat.

Since my goal is to aim for $20-$25k a year or $2000 a month or less, this means I do not need to get into the trouble. What's the use of a strong game when you get backed off?

[ZeeBabar]

That place threw me into OSN and counter-measured me numerous times. And Zee also mentioned East St Louis, which he's also wrong about that too. That place backed me off and escorted me off the property.

It's true that some places in the Midwest can be a little more tolerant (compared to Vegas maybe), but they aren't stupid either. I've been counter-measured in every St Louis casino multiple times, most of the KC casinos, and backed off from casinos in IA and East St Louis, as Zee mentions. But most of these places will probably not bother Zee because I'm not convinced he's playing a strong enough game. Why else would the same store left him play day after day with no heat?

SCG, and perhaps you, think it's a waste of time if you just win $200 and leave. It's a different mindset. I get free rooms and meals at River a City, Lumiere, Ameristar and Hollywood. I go for an overnight stay to St. Louis and if I win $500, from 2-3 of them, I am fine.

[Ryemo]

Since my goal is to aim for $20-$25k a year or $2000 a month or less, this means I do not need to get into the trouble. What's the use of a strong game when you get backed off?

Zee, don't fool yourself into believing you can take $25K from casinos annually, unless you change up a couple things; you either need to get more aggressive or put in a lot of hours!

I've simmed your game before and I know that your hourly EV is pretty low. And that sim assumes no strategy mistakes, no counting errors, no index play errors, no cover bets, etc. So whatever the sim results are, you can realistically deduct 20% of that EV from those results. If you ever start using CVCX, you'll see that for yourself. So there's a few things you need to do then; put in more hours, which may expose your game and the counter-measures may come anyway. Or you get more aggressive and increase your hourly EV. Or seek out better games, but then you'll have travel expenses that will eat into your EV too.

[Three]

Zee, You make $200 and spend an hour driving and use gas and wear and tear on the car. Even in my red chip days I was making more than that and only drove to the casinos when I was going by them anyway so no travel costs or incentives had a theoretical greater than the travel costs. I am not talking free meals as incentives but match play, free play and/or cash back.

One of my favorite casinos as a red chipper had a $5 table during certain times of the day so my spread was doubled or tripled. I got $100 MP one weekend a month and free slot play available regularly. MP was converted to free slot play to almost double its value. I could convert points to slots for 1:1 on certain days. On top of that discretionary comps would feed me. I picked and chose select days with multiple incentives so the theoretical covered my expenses and still had a lot left over. Points were pretty easy to accumulate and I made sure I hit that 1:1 conversion day once every month or 2. Plus each month you earned free slot play for a weekend the next month and had a monthly free slot pay stipend good on any day. If I remember right it was $25. If I was just going every day without regard to incentives travel costs would have eaten me up. I had a way to drive the backroads a lot of the way to save about $17 in tolls without costing me but a few minutes travel time. If you are going to make it with low EV you must use every angle to cover expenses. You can't afford to tip and much of your EV after expenses comes from the incentives. Most trips the incentives had an EV over $100. The incentives got me about 3 or 4 days a month that each had over $100 EV and unless I was driving by anyway that is the only days I went to that casino. It was out of the way small joint that didn't work into multiple casino visited in the same day in order to stack incentives from a collection of casinos on a circuit. The other casinos wouldn't be worth the trip with their individual incentives but visiting 3 in a day didn't use much more gas or tolls but their collective incentives were worth more than $100 in Theoretical. That got me out every couple of weeks. There was another casino that I drove by going on both of these trips. I visited it but their incentives were practically worthless but there were no travel costs and they offered the best game but not the best conditions. Sometimes I would have other things that took me by the casinos an hour or 2 away and would justify a visit at no travel expense since I was paying the expense to do what took me so far away from home anyway.

So I had about 4 days a month that I visited 2 casinos each day and 2 or 3 days a month I visited 4 casinos each day. Then I had a couple trips a month to train for a few days each learning from some top pros while asking relevant questions and intently listening to their answers taking in all the subtle nuances. I would put the new knowledge to work and ask more questions on my next visit with my mentors. That destination sucked for a red chipper but I did a tiny bit of backcounting but I had to drive by several good casinos going to and from the destination and I spent a day playing on the ride up and the ride back. Also one day on each training trip we would all pile in a vehicle and hit a great game a half hour away where I got some selective play in. The minimums on this destination at the chosen time were steep so I had to pick my table carefully and wong out aggressively due to the reduction in my spread. Often Tarzan won his win tolerance goal before I chose a table and just hung out for a few hours waiting for us. I mostly went to learn on these trips and didn't spend much time backcounting last the home casinos but I had some decent hits for the small amount of time I spent backcounting. So with incentives covering all travel costs I got about 12 days a month playing at 6 different casinos with some backcounting at a few other casinos. I visited 1 casino on every trip for 12 visits a month. Another saw me about 4 times a month. Several others saw me 3 to 6 times a month. And one saw me twice a month.

I also hit a promo once a week until it dried up (less than 2 months) 4 hours away that had an off the top advantage and allowed me to green chip at the same RoR as when I was red chipping. Many times I rented a room which added to expenses but I made thousands on each trip in the 6 to 8 hours the promo was offered each day. The advantage off the top game was the incentive that covered the travel expenses and much more. It is funny because once they started tightening the promo after an AP team came in with a 7 figure BR to try to crush the promo for all it was worth, my green chip bet spread was optimal for the restrictions. Higher top bets watered down the promo and smaller min bets didn't qualify for it. I hear the team "only lost a little over $100K". I get lucky a lot like that. Many times it is more by design but not this time. This time the restrictions just fit my optimal spread for my BR and RoR perfectly.

On the other hand you just drive practically everyday to distant casinos and make little while still having to cover expenses and complain about that. Eventually the variance will catch up with you. AP play is about studying conditions and working all the angles to gain the biggest edge that is practical. If your EV is small you must find other angles to add to it and/or cover expenses. Most casinos will help with expenses if you have played rated for a while. There are often sign up incentives for new card holders to give you an incentive to play for longer and at higher stakes. I remember one place I never got a card because the new card promo was so good I wanted to wait until my BR grew to take full advantage of it. I never got around to it after that happened. I should see if it is still available now.

[ZeeBabar]

Thanks for a very valuable story, thanks for sharing. At present I play rated, play at the local casino 1-2 hours each day, play at 2-3 casinos about once every 2 weeks. The latter has some small expenses related to it. I have gotten away for 2+ years primarily because my wins are low but I look at it like learning.

i am 2 months away from retirement and will travel to casinos in the Midwest, if I live here or in Nevada, if I move there. Your words are very valuable.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

I hear the team "only lost a little over $100K".

We didn't lose quite that much; but they immediately trespassed some of us and cut-off 2.5 decks out of 6.

For a small rural joint they had sophisticated surveillance that included running every (entering) car's license

plates through a data base field in OSN. THAT was a surprise. That was my last "team play."