Yes. Hi-Lo is +8 against the 10.Originally Posted by Freightman
and your point is ... ?
FWIW I have seen several civilians in Southern California casinos, particularly San Diego area, surrender any stiff to a dealer face or ace. I have even seen one civilian who surrendered all stiffs to dealer 7+ AS WELL AS some non-stiffs such as 4,2. Yet some casinos ostensibly think it is in their best interest not to offer LS on all their games...
I wish I had those true count surrender numbers for KO as well,
In KO surrender indexes are available for common situations like 16 vs dealer 10, 9 and 8 or 15 vs dealer 9 and 10
Sometime I find myself in difficult positions when the RC is +12 and I have a 15 against dealer 8
Remember that in KO the max RC for max bet is +4, so I have a strong feeling that a 10 is about to hit my 15 and bust me, but I still must do it because there is no index for that which means even in a high RC like that I should hit my 15 vs dealer 8 or 7!
any idea on this? is my play wrong to hit 15 vs 8? should I better surrender instead of hit or stay?
Unfortunately at a few places (here in America) I play that offer LATE surrender, I've seen several different players use the "surrender any bustable hand" strategy... surrendering 12-16. Not surprisingly, they usually aren't on the table for my whole session.
I'm assuming he is surrendering 17 earlier because he has more knowledge of the cards that are neutral in the h/l count that can beat him
if under the 10.
When playing h/l and surrendering 17 v 10 @12 and 17v9 @13 you are counting on the 10JQorK to be the under card, per your very high TC - because you have no knowledge of the 8 or 9 because they are neutral cards.
There is no glory in practice, but without practice there is no glory . -Unknown
If you want to use more indexes with KO (other than the ones published by the authors), then you will need to begin true-counting KO ("TKO"). Deck estimation is required under the TKO method You can then develop any number of indexes for TKO using the CVData program. That is the approach I've taken. I use TKO and the top 50 indexes. But for more simplicity, I put the indexes into three groups of <0, +4, and +10. You really don't lose much with this approach and you will end up having a more powerful system than Hi-Lo with full indexes.
If you want to learn more about TKO, I suggest that you do an internet search of the various BJ forums on this topic and you will find a number of discussions on the subject. Then feel free to come back with any questions and I would be happy to assist.
Thank you Bigdaddy, you are really helping me here and your solution is right.
True counting unbalanced KO is harder than using a balanced count from scratch, so I have some indexes memorized by the deck penetration.
An example: I start KO count for 6-deck at -20 , now the book says to take insurance at +3, but in first deck I take insurance if count in 0 or higher, on the second deck +1, on third deck +2 and on the remaining decks at +3
I found these numbers in a table published in Modern Blakcjack by Norm,
Do you use similar method?
if so, I would appreciate if you could share with me your indices according to penetration with me
Especially for surrender
Ok - the best way to do this is for you to send me a private message with your email address. I will then email you the chart I developed with the index groupings for the various games' rule sets. Then we can follow up and discuss your questions, etc.Thank you Bigdaddy, you are really helping me here and your solution is right.
True counting unbalanced KO is harder than using a balanced count from scratch, so I have some indexes memorized by the deck penetration.
An example: I start KO count for 6-deck at -20 , now the book says to take insurance at +3, but in first deck I take insurance if count in 0 or higher, on the second deck +1, on third deck +2 and on the remaining decks at +3
I found these numbers in a table published in Modern Blakcjack by Norm,
Do you use similar method?
if so, I would appreciate if you could share with me your indices according to penetration with me
Especially for surrender
I have surrender and stand indices for 12vsT, 13vsT having to do with {6-9} removed from the deck. I live in a parallel dimension. This is of course no help to AliD so I suggest he take BigDaddy up on helping him with fine tuning or questions on indices related to KO.
Last edited by Tarzan; 02-03-2016 at 04:23 PM.
Very interesting game Ali D. i am curious to know the min and max of this game, is the max 10x the min?
This is because often times the table limits give you a good idea of tolerance levels and what average bettors and hardcore bettors play. Let's say for example you're playing at a $5-100 table. The average bet may only be around $15-20 at most usually $5-20 for most random ploppies. Once in a while you may have a high roller come in to that table betting $25-75 a hand. This might be like 1/15-20 players I'd say. The point is, you don't wanna stick out badly just based on your top bet.
Tolerance like you mentioned should be a primary point of consideration since they're offering a destroyable game with those rules. I didn't sim it, but I played a similar game with a 1-4 spread (just for comps) with only LS using hi lo full indices and it was slightly positive in terms of EV. Actually even 1-3 was better than break even. Is 1-10 spread too much for them? How do you know? Based on table limits like I mentioned above, heat or what? You mentioned something about rebuilding your bankroll, is this the primary reason? There's really no good reason to spread so low if there is no heat.
Cumulative win will get you usually in tolerant joints. This can range from 5k-200k depending on size of casino, level of action and tanks limits etc. Basically once you hit a certain win threshold, you're game over anyways no matter the size of your spread. You should consider rat holing perhaps to help offset this.
As for the discussion regarding surrendering 12, 13 and 17. I've seen it done by ploppies but it's rare. They have the I don't wanna bust strategy- I have even seen players surrender 12 vs 7 and also not hitting 12 or 13 vs. 7. It's pretty rare, I've only seen it like two or three times. I also saw one washed up/wannabe card counter surrender hard 5 and 6 vs. 10. The count was like true 21 or something outrageous. I wondered at the time whether this could be a correct move under any circumstances on a 6d shoe and have always read that you never surrendered those types of hands, but I am curious to this day. Oh another situation that comes to mind was when another wannabe card counter surrendered hard 18 vs. 10. The count was also sky high, I forget but probably true 17+
Posting Permissions
-*-
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks