I also agree that psychology plays more important role than naked math here. If I feel emotionally low about a casino, that will effect my counting skills as well. It is true that cards are the same and rules haven't changed, but human emotions are not logical and it is proven that they are more powerful than logical brain when it comes to make decisionsOriginally Posted by ZeeBabar
Sleep and meditation are needed most on those times!
As your BR grows (hopefully) and you gain enough experience at the tables, these swings will not (or at least shouldn't) bother you. You NEED to keep your emotions in check. I disagree with Zee about setting such a low loss limit. This can only hurt your EV because you will spend too much time commuting back and fort to the casino and you will be leaving money on the table. $1,000 loss limit? Give me a break. That can happen many times over in 1 single shoe! Maybe not so much at your stakes, but most definitely at the ones Zee describes! Big losses are inevitable, so you must learn to cope with those feeling (hopefully sooner than later) if you want to make it in this business. I'm directing these comments primarily to Zee, because I think his approach is horrible. Here's when it's time to leave the tables:
1) You physically ran out of cash and have no access to immediate cash.
2) You're catching heat! They're sweating your action, so it's time hit the door!
3) You're exhausted, so this could potentially impair your judgement/focus.
4ish) You booked a huge win that crosses the casinos threshold for comfort. This could lead to scrutiny/heat, which can be tied to reason #2. Time to move on to the next place!
In my opinion, these are the only reasons one should leave the tables. Setting such low loss limit sounds ridiculous to me. Just my opinion though. Good luck!
To add on this. If set a stop loss for psychological reasons, you should still never leave in the middle of a shoe. Stop losses don't affect normal players, but as counters you're more likely to hit a stop loss (or stop win) while you have your big bets out. Obviously if you leave during a shoe that's positive you are hurting your expectation tremendously.
Same applies in extent to the other reasons you might leave. If you start running out of cash during a high count, remember to bring more next time! But don't you dare run off with any money in your pocket if you were suppose to bet it. Even if you can't make the full bet, you gotta get some of the money you're otherwise leaving on the table. Save a bet or two for doubles and splits.
If you're catching heat, unless staying till the end of the shoe is really unwise (they're about to grab you, a guy runs up w/ a camera lol or something really urgent) stay in that shoe. There will be time for running away once you fire off a few more max bets.
For 3), it depends if you think you've made a mistake that shoe and whether anything is happening. I usually stop counting at -5 TC anyways.
But try to manage tilt. We aren't poker players, we shouldn't need stop losses for psychological reasons!
This. You had one big losing SHOE. Wait until you have a downswing for 2-3 months. Has happened to others and happened to me and my business partner last year. Absolutely heart wrenching when all you do is go play and lose, every shoe, every day, for months. You had one bad shoe... and hell, if you ever have a max bet where you split 3 times and double once or twice, that's $500-$800 on 1 hand right there. You could easily swing more than $1k in a shoe.
You're right this was a good learning experience... but the learning experience should be you have more to learn, not that you've since learned what you need to know about bad variance =P.
I probably mis-stated and folks are judging by the $1000 loss limit. I go for short sessions. I take stock of my psychological state. I think both are important. It's often how you lose, not how much, that affects your psychoogical state. For example, playing a $25 DD game, you cash in for $300, the count rarely coming up positive and you accumulate about a $1000 an hour later and finally the count gets high early, you place $150 and $200 bets, you split and double, ploppy on third base stands on a soft Ace,6, (not that it matters), dealer gets a 4 to make 20 and you have gone from being up $1000k to being down. Another shoe and you lose some more,you start getting irritated at ploppies,dealer chatting and not dealing fast enough..
My main point is that I prefer short sessions and am learning to leave when it's not fun to playing that day. I usually take a session BR of $2000 for DD games, $4-5k for 6 deck games.
It is true that this may not be my worst losing streak yet, but I have also decided to lower my bet spread almost by half and take a more conservative approach by playing positive counts mostly and avoiding the negative counts. Variance is there, but it definitely will be minimized to a tolerable level.
At the end, I think it is not a black and white matter and people take different approach according to their character. While Romes would be totally indifferent to a negative swing, me and Zeebabar would need to keep in check our emotions first. But I guess we can all agree that we learn our lessons along the way and do not let the fear cripple us for a long time.
Playing positive counts and avoiding negative counts is tough these days. There are mostly no mid-shoe entries in many $25 min games, even 6 deck and when they do allow you to enter, there is heat and limits placed upon how much you bet and excess heat if playing unrated.
in casinos outside of Las Vegas, Tunica, AC, with crowded tables, losing your spot becomes an issue and you stand out when jumping tables if there is, as common, only one or two pits. You just spread differently. I play 2 hands of $10 at plus RC, one hand of $10 at negative RC, 2 hands of $20 at TC+2, of $50 at TC+3 and up. If I lose my spot, I have to quit playing.
ZeeBabar,
I know that you and I occupy polar opposite extremes in the BJ world.
With that stipulation firmly in place, I must say that BJ is NOT for people
who have unpleasant reactions to losing. They need alternate avocations.
After winning or losing significant amounts of money I feel precisely the same.
I am not overjoyed. I am not crestfallen. This is obviously false for recreational
gamblers; "problem gamblers" included.
I always look at it in terms of EV, so every session is a winner... and rarely do I let my emotions get the better of me (though I'm not saying it's impossible or never happened), but Zen, even you've got to admit it feels a lot better winning $10k rather than losing $10k. I won't be emotionally distraught either way, as I know my expectations, but it still sucks to experience the bad side of variance, however inevitable it may be.
I challenge this statement lol. I've had a very proficient and winning game for the better portion of a decade. Last year was my first full year with a teammate and I tested him CONSTANTLY throughout the year and especially during our 2-3 month losing streak, both on and off the tables. Some people, it seems, find the left side of the curve easier than others =/.
I respect the fact that different people have different risk tolerances and thus will play with different levels of risk. However, depending on what your bankroll size was already, cutting your spread almost in half seems like quite a reaction. If you would be willing to take a substantially worse game (as in choice of approach) after having a non-frequent but still relatively common one-session loss I would be concerned what other 'safe' decisions you'd be inclined to make. Again, this is predicated on the assumption that you were already playing with a reasonable level of risk to begin with. My point is, that there is a certain line where if you can't handle the swings your fixes should either be to learn to, or consider looking for another hobby, instead of playing a worse but safer game. That line is already above most people's tolerance. You should take some time to learn what kind of swings you can expect not only in a single session but across multiple. In the end, the only thing that will get you used to it is going through it yourself.
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