HiLo vs Zen - I'm confused

[Freightman]

I am still of the fundamental belief that simplicity is all that's needed. One you go to the next step, of a higher count, there may be benefits, but it is a very diminishing return for the investment of effort (with todays conditions that most players play).

You keep spouting this crap - again, if u can't do it - fine - but please explain to me why the benefit of a higher count is a diminishing return on investment. I'm likely twice your age - I don't have any appreciable error rate, and I don't get tired - so explain in simple terms that a 3 year old can understand why your comments are valid - thank you.

[Jabberwocky]

Personally, I would not touch any spanish or pitch game with anything less than a level 3 count.

[Blitzkrieg]

I don't think it's really possible for a player to count multiple tables at once and then have to convert to a TC, make the appropriate bets, then... keeping up with an adjacent dealer on a different table and that's if people are not blocking the view. That's not my idea of having a good time, that is turning the game into a pain. Who and the hell plays BJ that way and under those conditions nothing is in the players control while trying to track the second table? It's not possible and it is not necessary the way I see it. How is a player going to track every double down that's turned upside down on a neighboring table or a hit when a fresh round is beginning on their table? That's where a teammate comes in handy.

[KJ]

You continually spout that bull crap - where does it come from?

You keep spouting this crap - again,

Freightman, both of my statements that you quotes, contain the phrase "I believe". That means it is my opinion. Am I not entitled to my opinion? I didn't state it as a definitive fact as some here do. Norman says that my problem is that I don't accept that others have a different view or opinion. Am I not entitled to that same consideration?

But if you want to know where this particular opinion comes from, it is strongly influenced by scientific human behavior studies that conclude that humans have a higher error rate when processing more complex tasks, even if only slightly more complex. Your statement that "you don't" is just sort of silly, unless you are saying that you aren't human. But if that is what you want to believe, that you are somehow different than other humans, that your brain functions differently than all other human brains, well that is your opinion.

What I want to know is how KJ determines his EV while counting multiple tables. It is clearly a big advantage if you can do it accurately and he admits he never counts a table for very long before either moving to it or giving up on it. Obviously if he is playing a huge count he isn't counting another table. But exactly how did you determine your EV while doing this.

Fair question, T3. I have always been extremely conservative when figuring my EV. When it came to this technique of tracking multiple tables, I struggled with how to handle it. I know in situations where I am tracking multiple tables, which isn't all the time, I will have many more max bet opportunities, but again, I don't know if it is 50%, 67% or just what a fair number would be. I have chosen to go with 50%, which I believe allows for those situations that I can't take advantage of the second table for whatever reason.

[stopgambling]

I would agree with Kj 's techniques while using level 1 and his reasoning of higher count could result in higher error rate. i have played a long side of a few that uses a higher count.they have complained of getting tire and can not keep going on. I wong quite aggressively and track multiple tables (may not be bj game) I personally wait for better opportunities such as error prone dealer /special dealers , easy scavenger plays /juicy promos when I am playing bj. I believed it is a better return than any type of specialized system that can attain a possibly 10-30% increase in winrate. A sp21 vs a bj game is an example. i would also wait for the whale plop to tap out and take his juicy split. How can i do that when i have to do all those more difficult tasks? My idea of AP is ,take advantage of situation with the highest efficiency possible. The higher level count supporters seemed to be talking about counting only where as level 1 people are thinking of doing less but supplement it with other plays.

[stopgambling]

I do not like to voice my opinions in these debate but Kj does have valid points. P.s. I try to continue to read/ask questions rather giving any opinions on these subjects.

[Bodarc]

Don't you guys have anything better to do?

[stopgambling]

this is my down time also , a counter that play with me for a few years (300-500 hours of play) admits he/she still makes MISTAKES ,This person practices almost EVERYDAY for 3 years . So I do not believe people do not make mistake. i have also see this person slow down a lot while playing beside me. This is not a put down for this counter ,but just to show we do not realized we can not function at full capacity all the time. I know I have made some mistakes and i use a level 1 ( i suck i know
) I still made money even for all those mistakes(even if it's a small amount) .

[Freightman]

[QUOTE=KJ;174382][B]Freightman, both of my statements that you quotes, contain the phrase "I believe". That means it is my opinion. Am I not entitled to my opinion? I didn't state it as a definitive fact as some here do. Norman says that my problem is that I don't accept that others have a different view or opinion. Am I not entitled to that same consideration?

But if you want to know where this particular opinion comes from, it is strongly influenced by scientific human behavior studies that conclude that humans have a higher error rate when processing more complex tasks, even if only slightly more complex. Your statement that "you don't" is just sort of silly, unless you are saying that you aren't human. But if that is what you want to believe, that you are somehow different than other humans, that your brain functions differently than all other human brains, well that is your opinion. [/B

The issue is not your opinion. The issue is you have expressed the same opinion 500 times, and it is tiresome, and actually insulting.

What is so difficult to grasp that what you perceive to be complex and difficult is really very simple. There is so little difference between hi Lo and halves, the learning curve short, the indexes virtually identical, that you proclaim it, and for that matter, other systems to be of little value in today's games. I think virtually any system can be learned well, given proper motivation.

Hi Lo is a great count to start with - your happy with it, great - no issues from me - it's where I started. Your proclamations essentially influences, those, with potential questions, not to seek out other information - and that's a disservice.

[Gramazeka]

I have just realized something rather interesting.

Posters, naturally enough, are taken at their word.

A wise man once said ... "Trust but verify."

KJ claims to make a 6 figure yearly income via modest stakes with Hi-Lo.

I simply do NOT believe that.

))))))))))))

I won 6 figure for some days. I used Hi Lo. You don't trust me? Ask Don...)))

[Norm]

About 15 years back, I wrote a calculator that allowed users to input their abilities at counting, division, side counts, memorization, fractions, along with style of play; and matched strategies according to their skill sets. Thing is, people’s brains are quite different. For example, I am much better at counting a high-speed game. When the game is slow, I get distracted and bored, my attention wanders, and I make errors. This happens to others. Einstein used to go out for walks and get lost. He had to carry a friend’s phone number, which he couldn’t remember, to call for help. OTOH, some people with low intelligence have near-perfect memory. Some people with low IQs can make quick calculations. Some high-functioning mathematicians have no problem with complex formulae, but make mistakes with basic arithmetic.

Yes, we need to take into account error rates and exhaustion. But, one size does not fit all. Some folk have no trouble with multi-level counts or side counts. Some of those people may make serious errors back-counting multiple tables. And, vice-versa.

When we talk about the human brain, generalizations can be tricky.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

Gramazeka,

You said,

I won 6 figure for some days. I used Hi Lo. You don't trust me?

I know that English is not your first language, but re-read what I posted.

Of course you can win large amounts IF you are betting enough.

KJ, by his own statements, does not bet all that much.

[KJ]

KJ, [/COLOR][/SIZE]by his own statements, does not bet all that much.

Flash, I have a variety of different bet spreads, ramps and max bets for different games and situations. Some games I max bet $300, some I max bet $800. Keep in mind that I am seeing and playing somewhere between 50% and 100% more max bet opportunities as other players, playing the same conditions, penetration ect, because I am tracking two tables. Someone else playing the same game condition but tracking a single game might see a max bet opportunity 5% of the time, I am seeing it 8-10% for the same amount of rounds played and time. I am literally changing the true count frequencies dramatically in my favor.

This smells of hyperbole

KJ claims to make a 6 figure yearly income via modest stakes with Hi-Lo.
I simply do NOT believe that.

I have gotten frustrated and left or threatened to leave several times. I get support emails from numerous members here asking me not to. I get emails from friends and people I network with on other sites telling me, I am crazy for staying. I have always swallowed my pride and stayed or returned, because I want to participate.

But this I too much for me. Now Flash is just going to try to discredit me in this manner. As a professional player and longterm member of this site (very first post on this site), who has been willing to share his experiences in detail, usually too great of detail for my own good, I deserve better than this.

On this site, no one has to prove anything. Naturally everyone is entitled to believe whatever they like. But there is a difference of someone choosing not to believe someone and trying to publically discredit them, for all intensive purposes saying they are lying and that is the line, you have crossed Flash. I don't deserve that. It is one thing to have differing opinions about subject matter, it's another to infer someone is a liar.

While we don't have to prove ourselves on this site, if challenged, I am willing to do so for a price. Back up you claims attempting to discredit me with some substantial money (a wager) and I will submit documents to a third party (Norm or Munchkin) and we can sort this out. Otherwise STFU and stop stooping to the level of trying to discredit me because you don't like my participation. You like to talk about honor....show some.