What Am I? & Tip Question!

**stopgambling** · 08-18-2015, 03:04 PM

i was in a similar situation ,but i back out of it very quickily as i realized what is going on, These thing do happens but quite rare.

**fjrider** · 08-19-2015, 10:51 AM

Don't know how accurate, but have looked up these charts for various places.
Shows a Vegas median of $15,610 without tips, and the charts sets dollar amounts for 2 sigma each way.

http://www1.salary.com/NV/Las-Vegas/...er-salary.html

**Shadowless** · 08-19-2015, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by fjrider

Don't know how accurate, but have looked up these charts for various places.
Shows a Vegas median of $15,610 without tips, and the charts sets dollar amounts for 2 sigma each way.

http://www1.salary.com/NV/Las-Vegas/...er-salary.html

Those figures are based on base pay.
Notice how you can click the drop down and click hourly.

Tips were not factored.

**Three** · 08-19-2015, 12:04 PM

If you click on bonus it about doubles their salary so I am guessing that includes tips. I guess money collected by the casino and given to the dealers by the casino is called a bonus not a tip.

**ZenMaster_Flash** · 08-19-2015, 03:13 PM

fjryder,

Those figures are bogus ! Clicking around you will find that the dealers in L.V.
supposedly have a median HOURLY income of $8. Utter Nonsense.
Perhaps (?) that is what they put on their 1040's. Nope (!) Tokes are payed by check.
I have discussed this issue with dealers that I have been on the best terms with.
Of course there is a range of earnings, and $8 would be realistic for some really tiny
places with $200 limits, break-in joints, desert truck stops, etc.
Realistically, the dealers get a base salary - $7.75 per hour at MGM stores,
but typically $5 an hour is the standard. The tokes are expressed as the "toke rate."
Those vary day to day but tend to hover between $18 and $22 an hour
I estimate the average net earnings are $25 per hour. A normal middle-class existence
can be had, especially for dealers who are married / coupled with another dealer working
a different shift; although, objectively speaking, the profession itself is a miserable one.

I have a real-life friend who is a Las Vegas poker dealer and he has told me that,
depending upon where he was employed, his annual earnings were always between
$45,000 and $80,000 over the last 8 years; but poker dealers have much better jobs.

**moo321** · 08-21-2015, 08:29 AM

Originally Posted by Cougfan

Moo - You certainly have a high level of concern for the actions of other people. I completely disagree with you on tipping dealers and yet I somehow can manage to not think of you as a "jerk". I am sorry that you have such a low opinion of me especially given that (I believe) we have never even met each other. I agree with you in general on tipping, but yet I also don't think that someone is a jerk if they have a different view. If they beat their wife or kids, then yes they are a bad person. If they don't give the kid at the Mc Donalds drive through an extra $5, then I really don't care all that much.

I also think you are misguided if you believe that casinos are not currently managing all aspects of their games (rules, minimums, scheduling) to maximize profitability. I doubt that we would see major changes to rules in particular if the casinos labor costs were to increase. I agree that there might be an increase to the lowest minimum tables ($5 in particular) as casino execs decide that certain tables just don't bring in enough money to justify the labor costs. A $25 min table would still be profitable even with a modest wage increase for the dealer, IMHO. That is unless the casino execs also decided to drive all the players away from that table through 6:5 payouts, or other similar nonsense.

One very specific, and very logical change that would make sense is a reduction of the time that dealers spend doing things other than dealing cards (e.g. shuffling). Auto-shufflers, and / or dealing deeper into the deck before shuffling are two ways that this could be done. Auto-shufflers cost the casino money. Dealing deeper does not.

As an aside, if tipping was to be completely abolished, why do you think that casino's would need to make up the full difference in their dealers wages? Currently, there is an excess supply of dealer labor, in general. That means the amount dealers make is greater than the equilibrium price. I highly doubt that we would see a shortage of semi-competent dealers if the wage at most places was more like $10 - $15 an hour.

1. If casinos had to pay a market wage for dealers and replace all of the tips, it would not be a "modest" increase in cost. It would be at least double, if not 3-4x in many parts of the country. You can't get good blackjack dealers for a flat $10/hr. You may not be able to get the type of dealers the Wynn would want in high limit for $25/hr.

2. Casinos are very highly leveraged, and face high to insanely-high tax burdens outside of Nevada (some effective tax rates are probably over 90% of net income). So, a small change in costs results in huge changes to profitability. I stand by the numbers I posted earlier. I doubt any casino outside of Nevada or NJ could stand to deal 3:2 blackjack for less than $25 minimums, and I think 6:5 and even money would become pervasive without dealer tips subsidizing labor costs/volatility.

3. You could get warm bodies to deal for $10 an hour with benefits. To be a competent dealer, you need a high school education, an IQ north of 85, and you have to be at work on time 100% and not be high. There are a lot of places where $10 will not get you a candidate with the above characteristics. I doubt you could get good dealers for even $20/hr. flat with benefits.

**Three** · 08-21-2015, 08:37 AM

Great post moo. It sounds like you also have experience running a business.

**moo321** · 08-22-2015, 02:29 PM

This chart shows how much casinos are paying in gross taxes in different jurisdictions:

http://www.ncsl.org/research/financi...ures-2013.aspx

Double digit taxes are levied on gross revenue (above the line). The effective tax rate (as a percentage of net income) is much, much higher for a gross receipts tax than an income tax. In addition, casinos are leveraged to the hilt with land and fixed assets. These factors combine to drastically multiply the effect of any small increase in cost.

It would seem that a table that is making $200 an hour could easily pay a dealer $20 an hour. But when you realize that 60-90% of that money is going to gross receipts taxes and overhead, you'll see how many casinos could not support those kinds of wages at low level tables in most jurisdictions.

**Dieter** · 08-22-2015, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by moo321

It would seem that a table that is making $200 an hour could easily pay a dealer $20 an hour.

You need to pay for a dealer for an hour. Actually, it's 1.3 dealers per hour, since you generally have to pay for break times. You need to pay for a quarter of a floor supervisor for an hour (3/8s, with breaks). Probably at least a third of a security guard and a quarter of a surveillance operator, too. And fractions of a cage cashier, count room staff, accountants, general managers... somewhere between 2.5 and 3.5 people-hours per clock hour to keep a table open, by my rough math. Don't forget that all those employees also probably get health insurance and some other benefits.

And lights, air conditioning, mortgage, and insurance.

So, maybe, if that $200 is net, after taxes. Gross, not so much.

With a .5% HE, I get that $200 gross as $40k action. 150 rounds per hour with 4 spots in play, that's a bit over a $65 average bet per spot. That sound realistic to everyone?

On the very likely chance that I've fouled the math, I'd love to get corrected.

**moo321** · 08-22-2015, 03:21 PM

Dieter, this is all just examples. But blackjack players don't play basic, so the house advantage averages more like 2-4%:

http://gaming.unlv.edu/casinomath.html

Here is an article that better presents how management looks at these things. They view table games primarily through "hold" which is basically their win at a table:

http://www.casinoenterprisemanagemen...able-game-hold

**Freightman** · 08-22-2015, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by Dieter

With a .5% HE, I get that $200 gross as $40k action. 150 rounds per hour with 4 spots in play, that's a bit over a $65 average bet per spot. That sound realistic to everyone?.[/I]

U need to adjust the HE. Very few ploppies know perfect BS. Average plop gives away 1-1.5%.