What Am I? & Tip Question!

[Three]

I would gladly tip the latter but the idea that some of my tips go to the bad dealers, the ones who shuffle up on me, who take glee in seeing people lose and making sarcastic or mean comments or tell me my play is bad or how I should play, who get upset when I go from one hand to two or drop down to one, these are also the dealers that I would be tipping and I don't want that.

These dealers that can't at least act like they want you to win should be fired. They are bad for repeat business. The casino would have no problem with someone that feels this way but anyone that actually shows it to the players has no business being a dealer. They tend to be the ones standing at empty tables and wasting the casinos money since nobody wants to play at their table. If the same dealers could feel that way but project an attitude of support to the players they would be fine employees.

[20 to 1 Spread]

They may add up all their tips given to dealers at the end of the year and say it is too much. I bet they don't add up the tips they give other workers that depend on tips to decide if they should stiff them. Well maybe some of them are that cheap but I suspect most don't.

This hit home for me. When we look at our daily tips at a restaurant or what not throughout the year; it's probably a whole lot more than what we may/usually tip at the casino (assuming you're a low/mid stake player). I won't lie, I'm part of the group that wants to generally tip as little as possible (the more I think about it) unless I am gaining something in return. For instance, the dealer knows I'm a solid player and just passes me by when I have a 19-21 knowing I'll never do anything weird. I like those type of dealers who understand your game. I don't mind tipping these. But slow dealers or dealers who keep calling black action, nut uh.

I'm still trying to rationalize it to be honest. Besides the fact that I'm trying to save money and be a cheap arse about it; what's the logic behind me not tipping a dealer but always 15-20% for a waiter? After thinking slightly about it, it's the acceptance/norm/mandatory to tip your server. It is not at the casino, so we try to get away with it.

[Three]

Well both waiters and waitresses get paid a small wage just like a dealer because most of their wages are to come from tips but a dealer is paid more by their employer than most waitresses or waiters. You can't directly equate the 2 but relatively speaking the comparison is valid. The other difference to an AP is that in the casino you are at work. More like tipping a cab driver that drives you to a meeting from the office. In a restaurant you are on leisure time. Keep things in perspective. Tipping too much is stupid and costly but not tipping at all? I will leave that up to the individual to determine their morals, strength of game and value they get from tipping. We have a pit employee that posts on the site that says tipping does affect backoffs for lower-mid level players. A stiff will quickly get the tap but a tipper is given a little more leeway as they are helping to pay the fellow employees.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

Tthree is fully correct. That pit critter eyeballing your action is an ex-dealer, and may be a "dual rate"
or his/her spouse/partner may very well be a dealer. When the player is considered a "possible" card
counter s/he will get some measure of extra consideration. After all, 86'ing a "George" will take a few
bucks out of the dealer's collective pockets, while money won costs the employees not a bloody red cent.

[LVBear584]

LVBear, btw, some stores in LV "go for their own" ie: don't pool tips. The Westin and Silverton are two. I think either the Tuscany and/or Ellis Island go for their own, as well, but am not sure. Other stores (really small ones), although they do pool tips, really do depend on tips. Stiffing dealers at Caesars or Bellagio isn't going to mean much to them because they probably drop $40-100K/night in tokes. But a small store might only have a few dealers and the drop be $100-300/night. And if it's really slow or there are few tippers in a day, the dealers can make as little as $10 in tips for the entire shift.

Thanks for the correction, I forgot about those mostly unplayable places. The Alamo truck stop may be a go for your own place, too.

Revised statement: In Las Vegas, no dealers go for their own, except for those at a few little sweatshops where it is unlikely anyone capable of using their brain in a casino will ever play, or play for long if they stumble into these dumps.

[Shadowless]

In the nicer casinos, an estimated 250-750 total dealers for all shifts work in a 24 hour period.
If a player tipped $500, each dealer would get anywhere between $0.67 to $2 out of that $500 tip.
If that player tipped $5,000 throughout the year at that same casino, each dealer would get no more than $20 from it.
The 5k could go towards much better uses.

[Cougfan]

I gave up tipping dealers for Lent 2012, and I never got around to starting back up again. I have noticed no negative impacts on longevity or dealer attitudes since I stopped tipping. The tip-hustlers will give you attitude whether you tip or not. They won't stop unless you are tipping more than any sane person would advise. The other dealers will be professional regardless of how you tip.

Call me a stiff if you want. I care about that precisely the same amount that I care about what tip-hustling dealers feel toward me. Same goes for ploppies who don't like the way I play my hands. If my skin was that thin, I would've given up this game a long time ago.

I am polite, and I don't take shots at the dealer by claiming I meant to hit, or whatever. I will volunteer to color up if it looks like a fill might otherwise be needed, and I will subtly try to talk down a drunk who is starting to get abusive toward a good dealer. These things may account for the generally positive attitude I get from most dealers.

My advice is not to tip at all if you are doing so because you are worried about what people think of you (dealers included) or you are doing it to gain longevity. If you want to tip because you are just a generous person, then by all means go right ahead, although I can think of at least 50 charities that are more deserving of your generosity than the average casino dealer IMHO.

[Three]

I tip to get good service. I find it easier to get the conditions I am looking for. If a dealer I know is cutting thick, I just sit down and push a $1 tip out bet for the dealer and the deck is cut thin. I get more than my investment back in EV. If a dealer doesn't help make my experience better than I don't tip. A good dealer will find out what makes you tip and give it to you. I can't tell you how many times a dealer has responded to another players request for better pen when it is accompanied by a tip. I even had a dealer that was familiar with me apologize for not cutting thinner but he explained the big brass from corporate were in the casino so 1.5 decks cut off was the best he could do that day. If you are good with people you will find the dealers that will be worth tipping. Having dealers make it easier for you to make money rather than worrying about them ratting you out just seems like it is worth a few white chips per session. I always figure you aren't fooling anyone anyway so what is the point. The only point of cover is to allow the suits to feel they can get away with letting you play. If you are to blatant they may have no choice but to act.

[moo321]

Optimum Tip level for people betting less than 2@$500 is $0. Most people (ploppies) tip $0. Tipping will buy you zero longevity at most casinos, and for those dealers who might be swayed to not rat you out, you can't tip them enough (you'd tip them your entire expectation). For high dollar players with an EV in the $300+ per hour range you can afford to throw a green chip to the dealer after a nice sized win (or make a string of $5 bets on top of your bet so that you control the winnings and if you catch a run a few $5 toke bets can amount to a good amount of money for the dealer). That said, I thought I tipped a meager amount until I began tracking them, at the end of the year I had tipped around $3,000 dollars....pure EV right down the drain.

I understand your argument, but I don't agree. There is some good evidence (Cellini and others) that moderate tipping sways decisions by surveillance, especially active surveillance (that is, surveillance realizes you are counting, but they never received a call from the ground).

[moo321]

Tthree is fully correct. That pit critter eyeballing your action is an ex-dealer, and may be a "dual rate"
or his/her spouse/partner may very well be a dealer. When the player is considered a "possible" card
counter s/he will get some measure of extra consideration. After all, 86'ing a "George" will take a few
bucks out of the dealer's collective pockets, while money won costs the employees not a bloody red cent.

I agree 100%. Tipping can absolutely sway backoff/sweat decisions, especially by dual rates, dealers, and surveillance (when they have NOT been called). There are several reputable sources saying the same thing.

[moo321]

LVBear, respectfully, I think your post is good, and I respect your opinion, but I think your estimate of dealer's earnings is a bit high for a lot of areas. It's probably close for the middle and top of the Las Vegas casinos, but I think your estimate of the low end is too high, and outside of Vegas (where dealers are getting less than $8 an hour base) I think it's way too high.

This is some info from the authoritative publication on dealer tokes. These numbers are for an 8 hour shift:

http://www.vegas-aces.com/Root/tips/tips.html

For example, the El Cortez averaged $20-30 per shift in tips. With an $8 base, we're talking about 10-11 an hour, or $20-22,000 per year.

[moo321]

I argue that you have some (low) obligation to tip. Toke rates are, to me, irrelevant to the ethical question of tipping, but I posted them for information. I think you are obligated to give someone a fair tip based on the service they provide.

If a guy is making $4 an hour brining your food to you, you owe him at least a few bucks for dinner. Similarly, if a guy is making $4 an hour to pitch cards to you and 6 other people, I think you probably owe him a couple bucks an hour.

You don't need to make him happy. You don't have to tip a fixed percentage. But I do think you're a jerk if you're not tipping at least $2 an hour, and your position is not well justified. I also think you're a jerk if you don't tip at a restaurant, or someone who brings you pizza.

Claims that management should just pay employees more are philosophical in their entirety, and also counterproductive. If casinos paid dealers $20 an hour, our jobs would be MUCH harder. Cut table games staff 1/2 to 2/3. $10 minimums at tiny Nevada casinos, $15 minimums in AC on a week day, and at least $25 minimums anywhere else. Places like Ohio and West Virginia, with high GGR tax rates, would probably have $50 minimums. Casinos would manage for full crowdedness (i.e. the AC model for the last few years). So, no heads-up. Hard to spread to multiple hands. Rules would immediately go to hell, with H17, 6:5, and even money BJs becoming common. $7-8 rake in the poker room. Little or no comps.

If anyone wants to disagree, I can prove the above propositions based on tax data from a number of states, as well as income statements from large casino corporations. There is absolutely no room for a company with single digit net profit % and high leverage to triple or quadruple their front-line labor costs without making extreme changes to their operations.

[metronome]

And what of the tip in the hope of inducing a deeper cut.
My experience is it can work, just not often enough... oh well