Split or Double Down??

[KJ]

I see what you are driving at Don, but you are missing the point. First the way he asked the question, especially with his history, makes it sound like he has no idea what to do with 4,4 vs a 5 or 6. I almost wonder what he has been doing with that hand....almost. But even that is not the point.

The point is and you should know this being an active members of both sites, is that Mr Zee, is not willing to look anything up for himself or apparently buy the software which will allow him to figure these things out for himself, which has been suggested a zillion times. He just wants everyone else to do the work for him.

I thought I was one of the last to run out of patience with him, but apparently you are still standing. You are semi-retired, so fly out, tutor him and take him under your wing and give everyone on both sites a break from him and a new reason to love you.

[Shadowless]

If you have a pair of 4's and the true count is at point were you would double down 8 against dealer 5 or 6. What do u do, split the 4's or double it down?

I asked the same question a couple months ago, and Don enlightened me:

Splitting takes priority over doubling, if DAS is permitted. If DAS isn't permitted, you never split 4,4.

[DSchles]

Here's my quick take: you all overreact to Zee and some of the other posters. You always have the right -- maybe even the obligation! -- to ignore anyone whom you prefer not to answer. That is always the quickest way to end what you consider to be frivolous posts. Few people keep posting if they are ignored. But, you all continue to buy into it. How many times are you going to tell the same person to get software, read books, do some studying, etc.? Your exhortations clearly aren't working. So STOP IT already!

I saw what seemed like a fair question to me. I don't choose to answer -- or not -- questions based solely on who asks them; that really isn't fair. Rather, I answer those that a) seem to have merit to me, and b) aren't satisfactorily answered by others. And, I try to be as fair and objective as I can.

Don

[NotEnoughHeat]

Here's my quick take: you all overreact to Zee and some of the other posters. You always have the right -- maybe even the obligation! -- to ignore anyone whom you prefer not to answer. That is always the quickest way to end what you consider to be frivolous posts. Few people keep posting if they are ignored. But, you all continue to buy into it. How many times are you going to tell the same person to get software, read books, do some studying, etc.? Your exhortations clearly aren't working. So STOP IT already!

I saw what seemed like a fair question to me. I don't choose to answer -- or not -- questions based solely on who asks them; that really isn't fair. Rather, I answer those that a) seem to have merit to me, and b) aren't satisfactorily answered by others. And, I try to be as fair and objective as I can.

Don

Hear, hear. While I'm not defending Zee's 'frivolous' posts (I recall seeing him around but I don't particularly remember any of his posts so I can't judge), I find personal attacks unseemly and not typical of this website. I won't tell anyone what they can or cannot do, this is the internet, and I wish it to be free. However, this website isn't the wild west, that's the whole internet. This website is a community center, a library, a laboratory and many other things. I just hate to see it not live up to what I have grown to expect and respect of it.

I hope none of you think I'm being melodramatic. All though I haven't sampled all the active AP websites out there, I was pretty blown away by the quality of this one and never looked else where (when it comes to a forum to participate in). I really do enjoy this website and it's members. Every last one of you.

[KJ]

KJ, in all honesty you crying about how annoying Zeebabar is, is actually harder to ignore then the erroneous questions that Z asks.. Everything I read from you is an attempt to attack someone.

You are the friend on facebook that complains on my timeline about people sending you game invites, which to me is more annoying than getting the damn invite. Stifle it dude, your annoying as all hell.

I don't understand the facebook reference, as I am not on facebook, but whatever.

I don't like this anonymous feature and not because you are being critical of me. You can be critical of me, I'm a big boy (that's what she said) and can take it, and this criticism is pretty mild. But I believe if you are going to criticize someone they have the right to know who is doing the criticizing. Otherwise it just seems cowardly.

I don't know what Norm's position was in putting in this anonymous feature. I have complained about the same type feature on BJ21 and the response from management there was that the purpose of such a feature is so people can share information that might otherwise identify them. I can accept that. But more often than not the feature is not used in that way, but instead used in a cowardly way to attack and criticize someone, just as you have done.

[Tarzan]

I posted exactly what I do on 4,4vs6 in the card counting section I think it was, primarily to point out the huge difference between S17 and H17 on this particular hand. 4,4vs5 S17 basic strategy is to split, index to hit at TC-1. 4,4vs6 S17 basic strategy is to split, index to hit at TC-3. 4,4vs6 H17 the index is to hit at -4. There is a lot more to it than this such as a "Goldilocks zone" deck composition for doubling 4,4vs6 S17 particularly when there are surplus (A), (S17 only) in the remainder and key card effect of (2,3) and (6,7) for both S17 and H17 with 4,4vs5,6.

Not to panic though! With this hand if you are anywhere close to the index the actual EV between playing decisions is so slight that it really has little impact on your bottom line. You have to be way off from the line of demarcation for the index to have any significant difference in EV for these hands. In the case of 4,4vs6 S17, you can have a range of deck compositions with as little as .001 in EV between hitting, splitting and doubling making this hand a sort of "poster child" for the people that like to talk of chasing pennies as a matter of fact. There are much more important hands to worry about.

[ZeeBabar]

Thanks Tarzan, Don S. I did not realize when posting that it was as ridiculous a question to ask what index number makes a difference in whether you hit, DDown or lit. The folks took my question on this site to post and point out on another site how "it's the most ridiculous question they had ever heard" and followed it with name calling.

I play a DD game with no re-splitting and Double down on only 9-11, H 17. I memorized the I-18 and seldom look at BS for playing. Your answers have helped me because, most often I get a pair of 4's in neutral or negative hands. Thanks?

I hope the short tempered AP's (to be honest, I learned a lot from them) can ignore me if the only thing they can think of responding with is nastiness.

[Bigdaddy]

Ok guys - let's call a truce on this issue -

So I'm at my local casino last night playing at my favorite table - drinking a few beers - feelin alright. Count goes high, I put out my max bet and guess what hand I pull: 4-4 vs. dealer 6! This thread starts bouncing around in my mind. Combine this confusion with a few beers and what do I do? I push out another stack and give the sign for one card. Doh!

Of course a disaster. I lose, dealer wins - everybody at the table thinks I'm a dunce. Won't make that mistake again....

[ZeeBabar]

Big Daddy, you are saved because it's this forum. Elsewhere, you would be crucified. At on time I posted that I had not split 9's against an 8 and I was punished. Yes, it was a mistake and they could have told me in simple terms but it's not their style.

[KJ]

Ok guys - let's call a truce on this issue -

So I'm at my local casino last night playing at my favorite table - drinking a few beers - feelin alright. Count goes high, I put out my max bet and guess what hand I pull: 4-4 vs. dealer 6! This thread starts bouncing around in my mind. Combine this confusion with a few beers and what do I do? I push out another stack and give the sign for one card. Doh!

Of course a disaster. I lose, dealer wins - everybody at the table thinks I'm a dunce. Won't make that mistake again....

Mistake is a funny word for this situation. Players often think that making the 'wrong' play cost them that amount wagered on that particular hand or in this case double that amount for a double down and/or split. It sure seems that way when the dealer takes your wager, but it really isn't the case. A better way to think about it is to replace the words "wrong play" with "optimal play". Then it becomes a little clearer in your mind that the true cost is the small difference in EV between the optimal play and the play you made, often only pennies.

Those pennies do add up and in a game with such a razor thin edge to begin with, can matter, but you shouldn't beat yourself up over it. I have a number of hands that I deviate from optimal play for a variety of reasons, ranging from heat, to conserving rounds during a very positive count.

[KJ]

Big Daddy, you are saved because it's this forum. Elsewhere, you would be crucified. At on time I posted that I had not split 9's against an 8 and I was punished. Yes, it was a mistake and they could have told me in simple terms but it's not their style.

Ya know Zee, stop pitting this forum against the other. The other forum is made up with more high end professional (and older) players, and old people can be a little grumpy. If you hate it so much, stop posting over there.

I don't dislike you personally, as of course I don't know you. I just am having a hard time not believing that some of your post...posts that you know or should know are going to generate those kinds of responses aren't about doing exactly that. You say how much you hate that forum....I say you love it and love the attention that you seem to go out of your way to create.

If I am wrong in my assumption that you seek that attention and your post are just that of a guy who's a bit of a slow learner and a little naïve, as you claim, then it really should not matter what anyone else thinks. All that should matter to you is that you learn and progress at your own pace and your shoebox (<- ) grows accordingly, at a rate you are pleased with...no one else.

[21forme]

to conserving rounds during a very positive count.

I believe this has been shown to be a mathematically incorrect thing to do.
Don? Norm?

[RS]

I believe this has been shown to be a mathematically incorrect thing to do.
Don? Norm?

I believe it depends.

If it's something like splitting 99v7 in a high count, you're heads up, and you know exactly how many cards are remaining before the cut card (maybe only 2?)....splitting would/could be bad or at least not optimal.

I remember this subject being brought up before. Don't remember the answer, but I think Three had a clever answer.

How do you even figure it out or look it up yourself? I understand how to look up the indices (duh)....but how would you figure out at which count is it better to DD than to SP your 44v5/6?