we encourage card counters here

**ellenc** · 05-13-2015, 01:10 PM

I also played blackjack. I like the blackjack games at Green Valley Ranch since they have a lot of tables open and you can get a nice, uncrowded game. They also offer decent rules, and deal about eighty percent of the pack out, which is good for players who like to count cards. (For the basic strategy player, penetration does not significantly matter.) I played the double deck game for a few hours, keeping a rudimentary count and not betting any more than $100 a hand. I did make one notable gaffe: On the first hand after a shuffle, a flood of little cards came out onto the layout, and I exclaimed — under my breath, I thought — "Wow, the count is already plus twelve." The dealer must have heard me, because he asked, "Is that the true count or the running count?" I told him, and the woman next to me said I should watch out or they’ll boot me. The dealer said, "Actually, we encourage card counters here. Card counters mostly lose." I played for a little while longer, and colored up with a nice profit. Darn all this losing. http://wizardofvegas.com/hotels/green-valley-ranch/

Anyone plays in this store? What is your experience like?

KJ · 05-13-2015, 01:34 PM

We generally don't talk about something like this on the open forum, especially naming specific locations and favorable or possible favorable conditions.

But I will say, something that is sort of common knowledge. A few years ago, several of the Station casinos, especially the two upper end properties, along with a couple others seemed to adopt the Bill Zender approach. Possibly, he consulted for them that I am not aware of...???

Anyway, they bucked the trend of shallower penetrations, especially on shoe games, but some on DD as well, and started offering deeper penetration, which as Zender noted will improve the bottom line due to less shuffling. The trade off is that they are pretty active in looking for and IDing card counters, especially above the red chip level. And on the DD games, like most of Vegas are monitored pretty closely for anyone playing above the red chip level, so much so that the commonly used phrase is 'counter traps'. You can take what you want from this info, but I would say that "encouraging card counters" is definitely a stretch.

**Frank Galvin** · 05-13-2015, 01:42 PM

More like, "We encourage APs to expose themselves as card counters, and we know that people who can't actually count, won't." Either way, it's a win for the casinos.

**Three** · 05-13-2015, 02:19 PM

Part of the Zender model is increased protection but only to true threats to the game. They may tolerate low level counters but give all counters the chance to prove they are efficient enough to be a true threat. Zender understood most counters will bust out a decent BR so allowing them to play will usually be a winning proposition in the long run. the few that bet large enough or play too often and are successful get the tap. If you look at all the most profitable casinos they use the Zender model. The casino is like an AP. Deeper pen to a casino is like an AP getting a fast dealer at an empty table. Profit potential soars. Too many casinos back off players that either aren't APs because they start a shoe with smaller bets or back off losing wanna be counters that raise there bet but don't have the discipline or BR to be successful. They end up losing much more than the average player. That would be like an AP deciding he didn't want spread much because he might lose some of those big bets.

**seriousplayer** · 05-13-2015, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by Tthree

Zender understood most counters will bust out a decent BR so allowing them to play will usually be a winning proposition in the long run.

There is a quote from Blackjackapprenticeship.com: "There are only 2 tools a card counter needs: a brain and a bankroll." It seem like successful card counters started their career with a small bankroll like $800-$2000. They were able to make it as successful card counters.

**Three** · 05-13-2015, 02:59 PM

Most people just don't have the discipline to make it as a counter. Many try but few have what it takes. Many of the casualties are pretty smart and many of those that are successful are not.

**Midwest Player** · 05-13-2015, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by ellenc

we encourage card counters here

Don't believe them. I had a dealer say the very same thing to me. Good rules and very deep pen. Think 75% pen on s17 2 deck game. Then one day they offered a stupid promotion (stupid for them) and I won $7,000 on their promotion. They gave me the boot. If you win just a little you might be okay. Win over their tolerance limit and they will boot you.

**seriousplayer** · 05-13-2015, 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by Tthree

Most people just don't have the discipline to make it as a counter. Many try but few have what it takes. Many of the casualties are pretty smart and many of those that are successful are not.

Please define what you mean by discipline. When you say discipline I make it mean that you have to play consistent with your choosen strategy. For example, you lose ten hands in a row when count is positive but you keep putting out big bets even though you are losing. You keep busting when hitting a stiff hand vs dealers ten card according to basic strategy you continue to follow it regardless. Those are my definition of discipline.

**tjr5259** · 05-13-2015, 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by Tthree

Most people just don't have the discipline to make it as a counter. Many try but few have what it takes. Many of the casualties are pretty smart and many of those that are successful are not.

Something that I feel has a great deal to do with having success as an AP is if you are a "Gambler" or not. I see posts on this forum and hear people talk about how they think they are an AP and I just think to myself that guy is a gambler and will lose lose lose lose lose. There is no excuse for over betting your bankroll, playing games you can't win, and telling yourself you are proficient at something if you keep losing to give some examples. You can call it discipline if you want to but it comes down to gambling or not. I look at all of my APing as investing and if I have a good chance at losing my bankroll I'm not even thinking twice about it. Sorry to get off topic, but this is something that I have been thinking about for a while reading some recent posts and you said you need discipline to make it as a counter and I think you need to add a mindset to not gamble as another quality to be successful.

**Jabberwocky** · 05-13-2015, 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by seriousplayer

There is a quote from Blackjackapprenticeship.com: "There are only 2 tools a card counter needs: a brain and a bankroll." It seem like successful card counters started their career with a small bankroll like $800-$2000. They were able to make it as successful card counters.

My bankroll has increased 7K% since I began my journey.

**Avincow** · 05-13-2015, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by KJ

We generally don't talk about something like this on the open forum, especially naming specific locations and favorable or possible favorable conditions.

I agree. Why invite competition to a place you like to play? You are going to get the opportunities burned out. Why let casinos know that they have a good counting environment? You are just going to make them paranoid (players will make less money, and casino will make less money because they worry too much.)

Please edit out the name. This is a place that is out of the way that most people wouldn't normally travel to. Now you are giving them good reasons to check it out if what you say is true.

**Three** · 05-13-2015, 04:53 PM

I think of discipline as doing your homework to know about a managing a BR, RoR, variance, pit procedures so you can identify heat etc. Then setting an optimal plan. And having the discipline to follow it to the letter. Too many are afraid to push out big bets or get timid after losing a bunch of bets in a row. They start steaming and bet more than they should to recoup losses. The use all kinds of crazy plays for cover that just gives up too much of your advantage and probably wouldn't give them any useful cover anyway. I could go on and on but you read the examples in posts all the time on this forum.

**ellenc** · 05-13-2015, 09:30 PM

Originally Posted by Avincow

I agree. Why invite competition to a place you like to play? You are going to get the opportunities burned out. Why let casinos know that they have a good counting environment? .

We are being taught to share and not to be selfish. No one could make all the money on the bj table. The info. is readily available in bj survey of Las Vegas for the public. It is being brought out for the matter of discussion. As many AP already pointed out, the casinos are at the end game, the players are always at a disavantage position which is the insufficiency of bank roll. So many of them got complete wiped out before they could recover. Of course, if you become consistantly winning, the casinos still have the upper hand, and you would be boot.