Definition of AP

**ZeeBabar** · 10-14-2014, 06:07 AM

Originally Posted by 21forme

It says he's a troll. he's been pulling this crap on BJ21 for a year and has been pretty much ostracized. There are only a handful of posters who will respond to him. So, now he's found fresh meat in a new playground.

Why do you want to spoil your own rep? Anyone can look up the posts I started on Bj21 and I would bet you that there were more responses on my posts than were on posts you initiated. Far more over the past 18 months. So lying that no one responds to my posts is stupid. You hurt yourself.

Yes, I think it is unethical in my opinion to go into any establishment with the intention of taking out more than you pay. Yes, I do it. I also drive over the speed limit and violate a few other regulations.

Some of you may have the need to rationalize that AP and not gambling is okay. So be it. The honest truth is that anytime you go into a business to take advantage of them (be it going into a buffet to eat just the steak meat, a bar only to eat the free appetizers and such) is unethical. If you do not like what some business is doing, dont frequent it and if you are going in there to take advantage, just admit it and recognize it.

**Norm** · 10-14-2014, 06:33 AM

Originally Posted by ZeeBabar

Yes, I think it is unethical in my opinion to go into any establishment with the intention of taking out more than you pay.

Isn't that gonig to a bank and depositing money into an interest-bearing account? Isn't that the point of going to a stock broker? The lotteries now have ads showing people driving Ferraris, living large. They say "You can't win if you don't play." But, you're saying it's unethical to play to win. Look at the thousands of sites with affiliate links to online casinos telling you how much money you are going to win. Casinos pay these sites and are therefore ethically responsible for their claims. Casinos sell books on how to win in their giftshops. An AP is doing exactly what the casinos claim they want you to do. Play to win.

**Three** · 10-14-2014, 07:03 AM

Originally Posted by Norm

An AP is doing exactly what the casinos claim they want you to do. Play to win.

You beat me to it. The casino tries to lure you in with advertising that you can be a winner. How could it possibly be unethical to answer their add by playing to try to win. Isn't that the lure they use to get you through the door. This one is a no brainer. Trying to win in a casino is not only ethical but expected by the casino from its patrons. The casino has a built in advantage to overcome the few tat can win in the long run by fleecing all the others that can't. That is what every business model you mentioned is based on (except the crime of the movie theatre example). They give you something over here and get it back plus more over here. They make less per customer but get more customers in the door and get them to stay longer by making them feel that it is worth it to them.

**Norm** · 10-14-2014, 07:14 AM

Yes, casinos do NOT lose money because of APs. Because, the fact that casinos are beatable, and that this hits the news now and again, brings in far more customers that lose vastly more than APs make.

KJ · 10-14-2014, 07:26 AM

Originally Posted by ZeeBabar

Yes, I think it is unethical in my opinion to go into any establishment with the intention of taking out more than you pay.

Every single person, AP, ploppy, systems player, people just playing for entertainment, enters the casino with the intent to take out more than they pay. I have yet to hear someone say, "let's go to the casino, I would like to lose a couple hundred dollars". By your definition, every single patron is unethical.

Furthermore any attempt at comparison between casino and some sort of retail business model is ridiculous. It is comparing apples to oranges. The casino industry business model is GAMBLING or chance. By very definition there will be some winners and some losers. Unlike a retail business for a business model based on chance some patrons must benefit. If there aren't winners the casino will not last very long.

**muffdiver** · 10-14-2014, 07:27 AM

There was a time that I thought I was an AP and wasn't, in fact. Thankfully, I corrected it but I'm guessing that many don't and they are truly LOVED and showered with comps from the casinos.
Sorry Zee, but I'll never have guilt feelings for AP my way.

**ZeeBabar** · 10-14-2014, 11:18 AM

[QUOTE=KJ;143132]

Every single person, AP, ploppy, systems player, people just playing for entertainment, enters the casino with the intent to take out more than they pay. I have yet to hear someone say, "let's go to the casino, I would like to lose a couple hundred dollars". By your definition, every single patron is unethical.

You may be right that no one goes to a casino to lose money but they go to GAMBLE and hope to get lucky and hit a jackpot or win some money. They do not go in like an AP player does. Most AP's claim they do not gamble. If they do not gamble and have no intentiions of gambling, then when they go a gambling establishment, they are defeating the purpose of the establishment. Sort of like the guy who walks in at Happy Hour to eat free appetizers and not spend a buck on anything else or purchases a movie ticket and once inside, stays to watch 3-4 movies.

**ZeeBabar** · 10-14-2014, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by muffdiver

There was a time that I thought I was an AP and wasn't, in fact. Thankfully, I corrected it but I'm guessing that many don't and they are truly LOVED and showered with comps from the casinos.
Sorry Zee, but I'll never have guilt feelings for AP my way.

Muffdriver, I do not want you to have guilt feelings and neither do I. But there is no need to deny that it is unethical. Driving over the speed limit is unethical but we do it!

**Norm** · 10-14-2014, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by ZeeBabar

Muffdriver, I do not want you to have guilt feelings and neither do I. But there is no need to deny that it is unethical.

OK, that is trolling and I suggest you avoid repeating this.

**muffdiver** · 10-14-2014, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by ZeeBabar

Muffdriver, I do not want you to have guilt feelings and neither do I. But there is no need to deny that it is unethical. Driving over the speed limit is unethical but we do it!

Please don't misrepresent me. I'm not a muffdriver-----------it's diver. Thank you.

**21forme** · 10-14-2014, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by Norm

Yes, casinos do NOT lose money because of APs. Because, the fact that casinos are beatable, and that this hits the news now and again, brings in far more customers that lose vastly more than APs make.

Historically, prior to the release of Thorp's Beat the Dealer, craps was a far more popular table game than BJ. While casinos initially freaked out after the book was published, it didn't take them long to see it was the best thing that ever happened to them, in terms of BJ revenue.

**muffdiver** · 10-14-2014, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by moses

...And a legend in the midwest from what I've heard. lol So is that ethical or un? Just having some fun with you my friend.

O says it's legal, good and ethical. I seldom disagree with O.

**Blackjacktilt** · 10-14-2014, 01:37 PM

Good question!! I haven't been around this board for a while but I would like to answer this from my point of view.
Advantage play as per my definition and experience is any type of play that gives you a fair or unfair advantage.
Example: Card Counting, Ace Tracking, Shuffle Tracking, Hole Carding are advantage plays that are not illegal (unless an employee is helping you) and fall into the fair category. These plays when executed efficiently, can make alot of money short term or long term. However, I feel that just because one can execute these plays does not give them instant success. I've played and had moderate success with these plays. Nothing to brag about, but of course I do not have the roll most of you have.
Advantage plays such as capping, past posting, card marking etc. are unfair and illegal plays and you do not neccessarily need alot of skill to perform these plays. However, the people with the skill in this category can make a killing and go undetected moreso than counters, trackers etc. It is known that a good cheater will not be caught until later or in alot of cases, never. I'd like to say good (fair) advantage players seldom get caught, but counters, trackers etc. think long term. Cheaters don't neccessarily think that way for one casino. What I've seen is hit and run with the cheaters. Most casino personnel that deal with advantage play nowadays know what is fair and unfair. They know the difference between cheating (which is an advantage play) and skilled play. I have great respect for all types of advantage play and always have. I have rarely been impressed with either. However, when I've observed a good tracker, counter or cheater I have great respect for the accomplishment and analyze the play as much as possible to make myself better.