We have no proof either or. Do you know anybody whose been barred? I use to work in a casino and card counters there were none - this is in california where cardroom games are player friendly.
If you're method works why would a casino offer a $10-$10,000 game?
And yes, I've seen it. It was in your home state of CA. For at least 3 years, if I recall correctly. It may still be available (SURFER may be able to confirm for me).
If you worked in a casino in CA you may not have seen any BJ bars or BO's because of a number of possibilities...
1. Your staff was incompetent to protect their games so they made them unbeatable or not worth playing (which I see more and more of in CA).
2. No one good enough to be barred or BO'd has been spotted playing or even played at all.
3. You were out of the loop of barrings or BO's (ie. you were a dealer, floor, or in a different department entirely). They are often very discreet with these types of situations as to avoid any bad publicity.
4. Your previous casino did not have anyone competent to recognize if one was counting (I hope not). Many small card rooms in CA are poorly staffed.
I have been barred and BO'd and I know quite a few people that have been barred or BO'd. I know people that have been BO'd for not even counting but just moving their bets up and down significantly or winning a hefty amount that the casino can no longer tolerate. I have barred and BO'd players myself during my career as well. My superiors would not allow me to implement procedures to remove these types of players form playing if card counting was not a risk to the business.
When I say no one good enough to be BO'd or barred (#2) has played or been spotted I mean that red chippers or even green chippers really don't effect a Table Games Department's bottom line. If I'm a Shift Manager of a casino, I would not appreciate and would not allow these low level players to grind my shift, but I wouldn't waste my time evaluating them to make sure they are playing a game good enough to beat me. My focus would be on the play that can really damage my hold.
I'd like to know what you mean by "player friendly"???
Last edited by RobinHood21; 08-10-2014 at 08:58 PM.
RobinHood21, I appreciate your contributions to the site and your sharing of your experiences, especially from the other side of the table. I always welcome the opportunity to hear the thoughts of those on the other side.
I appreciate and share your Zender-like conclusion that low and even mid level counters don't effect the casino's bottom line. But I don't quite understand the statement you made after that which I highlighted. You wouldn't allow them, yet you wouldn't waste time evaluating them? It seems like a contradiction, but maybe I am just not understanding you. So how would you handle it?
I'll give an example... Keep in mind most effective casino personnel prioritize effectively.
If I'm running the shift and a floor or even a dealer (which I've had happen) comes to me with a hunch or evaluation of a player the first questions I ask are, "What is he spreading and in what units?". Now with that information I can make a decision to proceed further (get with surveillance and review tape) or just place a note in the account (if player is being rated) and keep moving along or come back at a later time.
Casino Managers (whom are generally making the decisions to BO or bar players) have a lot of tasks and things to handle throughout their day. If it's a Friday night and I have some significant play in my HL, I will not only be keeping a closer eye on those games, but I will also have to become somewhat of a Host to these players quite often. If credit players are playing and they need more money, which happens nearly every weekend, I am the one to issue or approve more. If guest complaints in hotel need to be resolved, I am the one to handle discretionary comps. Valet issues. Restaurant issues. Personnel issues. Dealer complaints. Floor complaints. Sending people home. Making sure my staff is getting proper breaks. Notifying upper management of win/loss' for certain players. Writing reports. You'd be amazed of all the chaos that goes on behind the scenes.
I am contradicting... But try to put yourself into the shoes of management. You are faced with many business decisions throughout your day. And if you understand your games you can let some of the money slip through as long as you are prioritizing in the right order.
Last edited by RobinHood21; 08-10-2014 at 09:55 PM.
First off thank you for the lengthy response. I'm not saying that the Martingale betting system can beat blackjack, but there is an advantage because of the betting system's progressive betting progression.
And there may be players that the casino bars because those players bet irregularly and they don't want to take the risk of losing, but it's not from his superior card counting ability. All the casino has to do to negate any effectiveness in card counting is have the dealer shuffle prematurely - they know this. In the places that you have work, rather than bar the player I don't see why you can't have the dealers shuffle after one game.
As for player friendly games, there used to be a single deck blackjack game where you can surrender half at any time, double down at any time, split if your cards match. For example if you have and 8 and 3, and you double down and got a 3, if the top card of your hand is the 3, then you can split that 3 from the double down and make a new hand all the while get another card for you double down. However, blackjack pays even unless you have them suited in diamonds, but who's crying. This was in Colusa Casino.
Then the only existing game I know that is still player friendly is the no-bust in Club One in Fresno.
Last edited by blackjackwarrior; 08-10-2014 at 09:27 PM.
I highlighted and underlined an important part of your post...
It is not profitable for casinos to shuffle after every deal or round or even cut the shoes shorter. Hands per hour is what makes the casino money. If you spend more time shuffling you lose potential profits. I recommend reading Bill Zender's book "Casino-ology 2" if you are still in or even not in the Casino business. This will help you understand and could be used as a tool when applying for higher positions.
As for the second part of your post... http://wizardofodds.com/games/no-bust-21/ (At the bottom of the page it lists the edge for number of decks and I'm guessing that you were offering an 8-deck game.
I think you should research your games before posting. I'm not sure of your crazy game you listed first, but my educated guess is that it is also not "player friendly".
Part 1. Yes, there are many people that think they can count and can in fact count (counting is very simple). But the accuracy in which they apply their knowledge is quite often misplaced. Along with their bets and BR's.
Part 2. The "crazy game"... Even money on BJ's gets you -2.27% off the top. SD gets you +0.48%. LS, or I'll give ES which it may well be gets you +0.39%. Still not "friendly". You need to give a full set of rules to back your claims.
Part 3. SD, 3/2, DOA, DAS, LS, H17 (Barona's old HL SD)... The House Edge is basically nothing (less than 0.1% if played perfectly), especially if you factor in the cash back or gift/gas cards they used to offer for rated play. Aria and most MGM properties high limit tables are generally "player friendly" (minus the heat). The HE is around 0.2%.
There is no accuracy in card counting. You can infer that there is a higher chance that a ten is going to come out next because a lot of small cards have been dealt - but it's been diluted. There is an advantage in card counting but that also cannot overcome the house edge. You simply have to rely on too many things to go right with each placement of the cards to what comes out. As for their bets and bankrolls, what do they do wrong? To say that they are losing because they are doing it wrong is invalid - there is no accuracy in card counting.
I don't think that his card counting education is diluted, nor that he hasn't grasped the concept. I think he is just "yanking our chain". That was my initial feeling several hours ago, and I vowed "not to play". I then went ahead and engaged, with the slight possibility that maybe he was sincere and didn't understand. But, now I am back to my first conclusion. First intuition is usually right.
Either that or an industry insider trying to alter reality.
Last edited by KJ; 08-11-2014 at 12:56 AM.
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