Scavenging Problems

**hitthat16** · 01-03-2014, 12:02 PM

I'm looking for some help when it comes to scavenging opportunities.

Lately I have been putting up double downs for players but when it wins they just say "thank you" and give me back the money I put up with no profit. Kind of makes my blood boil because I just want to ask the players why would I risk money with zero chance of a profit? I'm not doing it to be nice.

So basically what I am asking is what do I say to players when I am scavenging off of them, so that they understand I'm in it for the profit if the bet wins?

**ZenKinG** · 01-03-2014, 12:22 PM

how can you let that happen lol. First off make sure they know you're in for a profit before you put the money down for them. Be like can I double that and i take half. I can understand where you're coming from, I don't usually explain myself, its common sense, i guess you just ran into some idiot or selfish plop. Just explain yourself from now on.

**Three** · 01-03-2014, 12:29 PM

This is my money and I get what it wins. Okay? Getting stiffed is always a risk and they can even take your bet along with the winnings. The casino must give the money to the guy whose spot it is. Most people in the pit like me and I have had the proceeds handed directly to my position by the dealer but they aren't supposed to do that. Most casinos will refuse to get involved but I have seen exceptions. When buying half a split make sure you are both on the same page. Are you sharing the risk on both hands or are you each taking one hand for yourself? Just be clear in your communication. Don't seem timid or intimidating. You want him to be comfortable allowing you the play but you don't want him to feel like he can stiff you. Avoid deals with drunks. Developing these kinds of plays is a social skill. I am not skilled at being social at the table. I just wait for an offer or when someone is really hurting himself by not splitting a +EV split like AA. Once you have helped him once it is easier to make deals.

**BJGenius007** · 01-03-2014, 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by hitthat16

I'm looking for some help when it comes to scavenging opportunities.

Lately I have been putting up double downs for players but when it wins they just say "thank you" and give me back the money I put up with no profit. Kind of makes my blood boil because I just want to ask the players why would I risk money with zero chance of a profit? I'm not doing it to be nice.

So basically what I am asking is what do I say to players when I am scavenging off of them, so that they understand I'm in it for the profit if the bet wins?

Over the years, this is what I saw on the situation"

About 70%, ploppies returned the orginal bet.
About 10%, ploppies returned the orginal bet and the winnings.
About 20%, ploppies thought it is a gift and kept both.

The last time I tried to make these +ev play and make sure he understand I did this for profits, he told me then he wanted to use his own money and got very upset it is not a "gift". In most times, ploppies think winners gave these gifts to bring losers some luck.

**Three** · 01-03-2014, 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by BJGenius007

About 20%, ploppies thought it is a gift and kept both.

This is actually theft. Only the lender knows the intent. The bettor has no legal leg to stand on. This is when I have seen the pit get involved. this rarely happens so don't expect the pit to run to your rescue. They gave the bettor an option of giving the bet plus the winnings back or get arrested for taking chips from another player without their consent (aka stealing). If the bettor had only taken the winnings I don't think the Floor would have stepped in because that is legal. The Floor asked the "donor" his intent and asked the dealer about the discussion and took the action. The bettor got upset and left after giving the bet and winnings over. The better had been very obnoxious long before this incident and perhaps driving him away was the desired result the Floor wanted. I was amazed. Almost without exception the casino refuses to get involved in these situations besides making sure the bettor receives the bet and payout as the law requires. I rarely see anyone get stiffed where I play. When it does happen it is almost expected if you payed attention to who the players are while you are playing. I wouldn't say you can tell who will stiff you but on the rare event that someone does get stiffed it is usually not a surprise.

**steveistheman84** · 01-09-2014, 10:15 AM

i've done this 3 times, and on all 3 i got my wager back while they collected the winnings. i just don't do it anymore.

**Jabberwocky** · 01-09-2014, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by steveistheman84

i've done this 3 times, and on all 3 i got my wager back while they collected the winnings. i just don't do it anymore.

It's all about making an accurate assessment of the person's integrity. In other words, judgment. Certainly a sane mind is not going to do it indiscriminately. At least I wouldn't think so. I have also chosen my targets wisely and have never gotten stiffed nor did I expect to.

**JohnnyUtah** · 01-09-2014, 01:10 PM

I'm big on scavenging. I scavenged A LOT last year and only one time did the guy keep the profits (on a $15 or $20 double down). I didn't flip out as he was with some arm candy that I enjoyed playing with and didn't want to leave. The rest of the time I clearly state before sliding the player my chips "If we win, I get the profits from my double down" and wait for them to agree. If it's a great split, say the guy "goes all in" and gets AA (or something with a double down possibility), I'm quick to offer the split money and make the deal that we will share the result according to % of money in play (50-50 for AA, 2:1 if he gets a good double down and I add another bet, etc). I've seen many times when players REFUSE the money, even if it's AA vs a bust card or a 10/11 vs anything. It's their decision. If it's 10 or 11 vs a 7 or 8, I can understand they want to see if they get a little card and hit again. They get no advantage by doubling in that situation so it makes sense to just hit there for them.

I guess I've never thought about what I would do if I risked a huge bet (say a few hundred or more) and I got stiffed on the profits or completely robbed of my original bet. I think I would say "I'm JohnnyUtah and I'm an undercover FBI agent" (or mention my actual profession along with some other BS) and based on that I think most people would go ahead and give me my money back.

To OP, I'd say "Hey, mind if I double down for you?" ... "Sure" ... (sliding the chips his way) "Only if I can keep the profits from my double?" ... "Yeah, no prob." Your first question gauges his interest and gets him to say "Yes" once. Your second statement spells out the terms of your offer (getting your bet back and profits, if applicable). You already have him with the word "Yes" on his mind and in an agreeable mood, therefore they'll likely say "Yeah" again, nod their head, etc. If he were to stiff you, make some big fuss about a verbal contract or something, call him out, whatever you want. I'll let you take it from there. Usually I'll only slide the chips if there is at least some sort of an agreement.

I'll also usually toss back a $5 chip if we win a huge bet ($100ish min) as a thanks and to get him to offer me JUICY double downs later on (or suggest playing it as a dealer tip). At that point, if I'm playing with several people, I'll mention that if anyone doesn't want to risk a lot of money on a double down just let me know and I'll get in with them. The ploppies will usually see the free $5 tip and less risk as a good thing for them. I just see the advantageous double downs as higher profit.

**steveistheman84** · 01-09-2014, 06:36 PM

what %age of times can you get screwed without it taking enough away from the play's edge to the point that your overbetting? there should be avg count and edge frequencies that you can work from.

**Three** · 01-09-2014, 06:45 PM

I have never been "screwed" on a scavenger play. I have seen others get screwed but I wasn't too surprised when it happened. I just have to read people.

**genesis13** · 01-09-2014, 07:31 PM

My first trip to Vegas was my first time ever playing blackjack. I didnt know anything about playing but I was having a good time and drinking for free. Over the course of 4 days I was there I played about 3 hours a day at different locations so of course I came around a lot of people that knew how to play and what not. Every time someone would ask to double or split if I choose not to myself and gave them the opportunity I would give them their bet plus the winnings no questions asked, usually they would throw me a 5 or even let me keep the winnings if I was in trouble. Now that im much more experienced I wouldnt give anyone my hand unless I ran out to money to double or split. But when I see someone not doubling or splitting on a good hand I ask to do it for them and split the profit 50-50. I think that's fair.

**MrZer0** · 01-09-2014, 09:05 PM

I wonder what 21gunsalute's thoughts are on the topic... LOL.

**hitthat16** · 01-09-2014, 11:01 PM

Genesis, be careful with splitting profits 50-50. A lot of double downs, while still very advantageous, profit less than 50% on the money. If you give half your profit away on these it's actually a losing proposition for you.

I like the ideas of getting the other player "on the hook" by getting them to say yes first and then going over the terms. Think I'll try that one next opportunity.