Mike H: Surrender or Stand 17 vs. A?

[Mike H]

If this is a reverse index wouldn't it be better to recommend standing for a card counting system? The counter will be making the correct play when more money is on the line. Just curious.

[jblaze]

This is one of those plays that is very rule dependent on H17 vs. S17. There is a particular negative index below which you want to hit (more applicable in H17), otherwise stand, and then there is also a high positive index where surrendering becomes the more profitable (losing less) money play than standing.

> If this is a reverse index wouldn't it be better to
> recommend standing for a card counting system? The
> counter will be making the correct play when more
> money is on the line. Just curious.

[Zenfighter]

there is also a high positive index where surrendering becomes the more profitable (losing less) money play than standing.

This is not correct, I?m afraid. For 6dks, s17 and ls, I?ve got:

Late surrender 17 v A if tc<= -4.6395 (-5)

Btw, the off the top figure for standing T, 7 v A = -.476308 (BJA3, page 443). The higher
the tc climbs, the less you lose by standing. Remember the dealer can?t have a face in the hole.

Sincerely,

Zf

[jblaze]

Hm, agreed. Don't know where I got that from. Fortunately haven't played a LS game in a long time, clearly have some brushing up to do.

> there is also a high positive index where
> surrendering becomes the more profitable (losing less)
> money play than standing. This is not correct, I?m
> afraid. For 6dks, s17 and ls, I?ve got:

> Late surrender 17 v A if tc Btw, the off the top
> figure for standing T, 7 v A = -.476308 (BJA3, page
> 443). The higher
> the tc climbs, the less you lose by standing. Remember
> the dealer can?t have a face in the hole.

> Sincerely,

> Zf

[Mike H]

Thank you for the responses. My question was assuming the dealer hits soft 17, should a counter not using the reverse index change his basic strategy from surrender on this play to stand? He might be making the wrong decision at neutral counts but when more money is on the line standing is better (although this won't occur as frequently). It probably depends on the bet spread and number of decks... and I suppose if you're going to go through the trouble of changing basic strategy you may as well remember the reverse index.

As far as the high count where surrender becomes better I think I remember something like that but not sure which index, it may have been a split decision and not surrender.

[Zenfighter]

With the h17 rule in effect, basic strategy is to LS. (BJA3, page 489)

So, late surrender T7 v A if tc<= 1.49645 (+2 looks fine) otherwise stand.

Let?s check all this with an artificial TC2 remaining subset, and see what we get.

Ace to Ten (21,19,19,19,19,19,19,20,20,84)

T7 v A (dealer h17)

standing = -.494355 , saving a couple of cents :-)

Sincerely,

Zf