BlodiaInc: Spanish 21 Redouble BS Question

[BlodiaInc]

Here's a question I have... I need someone to do some math...

I have H17, redouble games around, but the problem is, they cap redoubling at max bet.... so if table max is 500, your 1st, 2nd, and 3rd double can only be for 500 as well... How does this affect BS? I am assuming Kat's book doesn't assume this limitation.

[BlodiaInc]

> Here's a question I have... I need someone to do some
> math...

> I have H17, redouble games around, but the problem is,
> they cap redoubling at max bet.... so if table max is
> 500, your 1st, 2nd, and 3rd double can only be for 500
> as well... How does this affect BS? I am assuming
> Kat's book doesn't assume this limitation.

Also, if you look at redouble BS chart at Wizard of Odds, he has forfeit for some totals 6-8, while Kat says to redouble any total under 11. Can someone please explain this to me, and who's right? Does it even make sense to put redouble totals for totals that you shouldn't even be doubling on in the first place against certain dealer up cards?

[MGP]

> Also, if you look at redouble BS chart at Wizard of
> Odds, he has forfeit for some totals 6-8, while Kat
> says to redouble any total under 11. Can someone
> please explain this to me, and who's right? Does it
> even make sense to put redouble totals for totals that
> you shouldn't even be doubling on in the first place
> against certain dealer up cards?

You're correct, the Wizard's table is just too thorough because it's including post-double hard totals that will never be reached against various upcards so there isn't necessarily a disagreement. You'll see Katarina's advice makes sense in addition to doubling 12 vs 7/8.

You're other question would require a lot of reprogramming for anyone to answer since you're "doubling for less" rather than a true redouble so I'm not sure if anyone will have an asnwer for you.

[Aruuba]

> You'll see Katarina's advice makes sense in addition
> to doubling 12 vs 7/8.

> You're other question would require a lot of
> reprogramming for anyone to answer since you're
> "doubling for less" rather than a true
> redouble so I'm not sure if anyone will have an asnwer
> for you.

I certainly don't have any kind of definitive answer.

But I can't see how limiting re-doubles to table max would likely make any difference in BS.

When you double you always have +EV in the first place maybe? If BS was to hit that total in the first place, wouldn't you always re-double if you can since hitting is no longer an option, and, if you can, wouldn't doubling for less just change HA rather than BS?

Like for 12 vs 7&8, the most interesting plays to me since they don't seem to be BS, especially against the 8 since without re-doubling, you'd forfeit it in the first place when your only option would be to stand or forfeit if re-doubling was not allowed.

But you'd never double 12 vs 7,8 in the first place so, even if you are limited to table max for re-doubling, you'd only ever see it after already doubling once in the first place. You could never see it after doubling twice?

So maybe you'd only ever see it with 4 units out? If so, maybe winning only 3 of 8 would be break-even compared to forfeiting 1 unit 8 times with 2 units out (each -8 units?)? But maybe being limited to only 3 units out, since I couldn't bet $1000, only $500, on the second double, I'd only lose 6 units in 8 times it occured so not being able to fully re-double may actually be a benefit? (Way simplified, ignoring stand option etc.)

I'm pretty sure I'm making little if any sense, certainly have confused myself, but just interested in any general thoughts or guesses of how BS might change or not with this question.

Or even how often anyone might speculate of even getting to a recommended 2nd or especially 3rd double. The first double wouldn't matter anyway at table max anyway, except to how much it may possibly be influenced by the possibility of the 3rd double?

Or even thoughts compared to BJ where maybe sometimes doubling for less wouldn't be as good as just hitting the hand? What does it all depend on anyway?

Or would maybe BS plays like dbl 9 vs 3 in SP21 with re-doubling be the ones most likely to change if first bet was table max and doubles limited thereafter to table max?

I only played a re-double game once and I think maybe once in 10 hours I may have doubled my first re-double (3rd doubling). I'm not even clear on the rules and was not prepared for it but it was basically a 2D S17 game with re-doubles. No match bet at all. Which only meant more hands/hr and much much less hassle from players to me.

I even have the feeling I could double split Aces before accepting only one more card. And maybe, like the OP here, "re-doubles" were limited to only original bet in the first place. OK, if so, not exactly like the OP here, not like I was betting anywhere near table max in the first place. But I mean who ever heard of a pitch S17 2D re-doubling game anyway?

So I used some blend of multi-deck S17 and H17 re-doubling basically without a clue of exact BS. At a $3-$200 table with $1/drink, betting more once in a while when I thought it was +, using, sporadically, Kat's S17 TC indices, woo-hoo, up $150 or so, 50 units or so in 10 hours, and drunk as a skunk, I didn't care. Not exactly disciplined betting obviously. Not what I would have done if I had had confidence in BS, etc.

Mostly I wondered, it just seemed like possibly a dream you wake up from twice while still in the dream and then really wake up.

Like would anybody have even a general clue how much BS and/or HA would change compared to an 8D ACity S17 game except with 2D and re-doubling allowed with same other AC rules even forgetting about a limit on re-doubling or doubling split Aces or not to make it simple. With or without using the AC BS and/or indexes applied to the 2D game. I don't care. Anything. Only if it's easy for you. (Really that was for you MGP, if your calculator could easily handle something like changing the 8D S17 AC game to 2D but with re-doubling like in the 6D H17, even if just in some general way.) It's just a question that has tortured me for about a year now wondering if/how much I may have missed out on something pretty sweet. This casino maybe had to be nuts maybe? I hope you can make me feel as bad as I have about it for a long time now, that my regret has not been in vain mostly betting $3 with an absurd roll in my pocket. I just remember thinking, since Kat and WOO, don't even seem to deal with a 2D S17 re-doubling game like that per se, how nice it may have been to have been you to be able to take a game outside the mainstream and have some clue what to do.

Norm, could your stuff handle, generate a BS, HA, indexes, for a crazy SP 21 game like that?

Sorry, off topic. Again.

[MGP]

If you're logic held there would be no difference in strategy between when redoubling was allowed and when it wasn't and that isn't the case.

[BlodiaInc]

> If you're logic held there would be no difference in
> strategy between when redoubling was allowed and when
> it wasn't and that isn't the case.

Is Kat not around anymore? =(

Seems she disappeared after the book was released...

[21forme]

> Is Kat not around anymore? =(

> Seems she disappeared after the book was released...

I believe the timeline is about right that she's near the end of her pregnacy. Perhaps that is her primary focus at the moment...

[Don Schlesinger]

> I believe the timeline is about right that she's near
> the end of her pregnacy. Perhaps that is her primary
> focus at the moment...

No, not the case. There are some health issues in the family, and they have consumed all of Kat's time at the moment.

Don

[Aruuba]

> If you're logic held there would be no difference in
> strategy between when redoubling was allowed and when
> it wasn't and that isn't the case.

Well, you're probably right but when re-doubling is allowed in effect you get to hit your hand again but when re-doubling is not allowed one's only options after that first double is to either stand or forfeit.

I just meant, and just guessing obviously, but given BS when re-doubling is allowed, but the second and 3rd redoubles being limited to 3 and 4 units of original bet rather than 4 and 8, I guess it could make a difference but if the second double makes sense to fully double wouldn't it still make sense to double for less?

I thought the question here was whether BS for when re-doubling is allowed would change if 2nd and 3rd doubles were limited to one original unit.

Like you say I guess you never know until you do it the right way. I'm just speculating for the fun of it. The easy answer, practically, is maybe just start with a half table max bet and your're covered through the second double anyway. That 3rd double can't happen very often can it? Is one actually allowed 3 re-doubles making for 16 orig bets out?

Are there alot of BJ BS doubles that would be incorrect if doubling was limited to only half original bet?

[MGP]

> Are there alot of BJ BS doubles that would be
> incorrect if doubling was limited to only half
> original bet?

You could use the tables provided by Cacarulo in BJA3 or on BJMath or use the tables on the Wizard's site and check. If you're limiting a regular double to 1.5 times the bet instead of 2 times the bet - take the EV's for doubling and multiply them by 0.75 and see if the EV is still greater than that of the other plays.

It's trickier with redoubling since not all subsequent hands are redoubled and it would take a lot of reprogramming.