The game would have zero house edge!!!
So you need to redo them. Sorry.
The game would have zero house edge!!!
So you need to redo them. Sorry.
> The game would have zero house edge!!!
> So you need to redo them. Sorry.
LOL - ty check just below that post and you'll see I did when someone pointed that out to me - you even responded to the postThe edge by the way even with redoubling and S17 is slightly in favor of the house still -0.110151318117587%
> Sorry it's taken a while to get back. I started
> college fulltime on Monday. I'm doing a multimedia
> course so I can make a pretty website for the book.
> yes. Always 3;2.
> No. One card only.
> Yes. Same as in the US.
> Yes. Also after a split.
> I sure do know.
Ok - I'm pretty sure I have to have some of the bonuses wrong here. With the rules below the player has an edge of 0.377640882677323%
Here's what I ran:
8D
BBO
SPL1
Player BJ beats Dealer BJ and pays 3:2
Player 21 always wins (even against dealer natural)
No HSA/DSA
Double Aces count as 1
LS
DDR
DOA
No Redoubling
No DAN
I'll assume H17
Bonuses from the Wizard of Odds SP21 page:
A five-card 21 pays 3 to 2, a six-card 21 pays 2 to 1, a seven or more card 21 pays 3 to 1. However, the bonuses are not paid if the player doubled.
A 6-7-8 or 7-7-7 of mixed suits pays 3 to 2, of the same suit pays 2 to 1, and of spades pays 3 to 1. These bonuses do not pay after doubling.
Suited 7-7-7 when the dealer has a seven face up pays $1000 for bets of $5-$24 and $5000 for bets of $25 or over. In addition, all other players receive a $50 "envy bonus." This bonus does not pay after doubling or splitting.
> BTW, I'd love to send you a free copy of my book.
> Please email me your home address.
Thank you very much, I'll get in contact with you about it.
Sincerely,
MGP
If they're Spanish decks then the edge shifts to the house significantly and is
-1.44767766726969%
> Ok - I'm pretty sure I have to have some of the
> bonuses wrong here. With the rules below the player
> has an edge of 0.377640882677323%
> Here's what I ran:
> 8D
> BBO
> SPL1
> Player BJ beats Dealer BJ and pays 3:2
> Player 21 always wins (even against dealer natural)
> No HSA/DSA
> Double Aces count as 1
> LS
> DDR
> DOA
> No Redoubling
> No DAN
> I'll assume H17
> Bonuses from the Wizard of Odds SP21 page:
> A five-card 21 pays 3 to 2, a six-card 21 pays 2 to 1,
> a seven or more card 21 pays 3 to 1. However, the
> bonuses are not paid if the player doubled.
> A 6-7-8 or 7-7-7 of mixed suits pays 3 to 2, of the
> same suit pays 2 to 1, and of spades pays 3 to 1.
> These bonuses do not pay after doubling.
> Suited 7-7-7 when the dealer has a seven face up pays
> $1000 for bets of $5-$24 and $5000 for bets of $25 or
> over. In addition, all other players receive a $50
> "envy bonus." This bonus does not pay after
> doubling or splitting.
> Thank you very much, I'll get in contact with you
> about it.
> Sincerely,
> MGP
Hi,
I can't get Yahoo to send any emails to you. Please make a Yahoo address or something so that I can respond and if you could please include a copy of some/all of the text from the last email I'd appreciate it so I know it's you.
Thanks,
MGP
I looked closer at the message I was getting and it turns out it's Hotmail rejecting Yahoo:
"Remote host said: 550 SC-001 Mail rejected by Windows Live Hotmail for policy reasons. Reasons for
rejection may be related to content with spam-like characteristics or IP/domain reputation
problems. If you are not an email/network admin please contact your E-mail/Internet "
Yes. Pontoon is the Australian equivalent of Spanish 21. Uses 8 Spanish decks. That HE of 1.44% is too high, so it will because some of the rules have been lost in translation. So I'll list all the rules:
1. 8 Spanish decks.
2. Same bonuses as SP21.
3. SPL1.
4. No dealer hole card, BB+1. (This means that you can draw to 21, win, and even if the dealer ends up drawing a natural, you have already won. NHC is extremely player avantageous in Pontoon, and player disadvantageous in BJ.)
If the dealer gets Blackjack, BB+1 means that you lose all busted bets plus one other bet. So if you split eights to two hands, and get 24 on one (a bust) and 18 on the other, and the dealer gets a natural, you end up losing both bets: the busted bet, plus one other. If you got 18 on both, you'd lose just one bet. This rule is called BB+1 ("Busted bets plus one").
Another example: you double on 11 against Ace, and dealer gets BJ. You only lose one bet, not two. If you drew X on your double, and dealer got a natural, you still won two bets against a dealer natural.
5. No soft doubling (because Ace=1 in pre-double hands)
6. Forfeit allowed after doubling.
7. Double on any number of cards.
8. Double on any hard hand total.
9. One card only on each split Ace.
10. Late surrender (but ignore this, because you don't surrender in Basic Strategy Pontoon because dealer has hole card, so if dealer gets natural, you lose your entire bet anyway, even if you've surrendered.) So in BS, we don't surrender in Pontoon.
11. 21 always wins, even against dealer natural.
12. Player natural always gets 3:2.
13. NO redoubling.
BTW, what do HSA, DSA, DAN, and DDR mean?
If DAN means "double any number of cards", well, yes, it is DAN. All Sp21 has DAN, and all Pontoone xcept Malaysia and South Australia.
> BTW, what do HSA, DSA, DAN, and DDR mean?
> If DAN means "double any number of cards",
> well, yes, it is DAN. All Sp21 has DAN, and all
> Pontoone xcept Malaysia and South Australia.
Yes, that's what it means. Others are: HSA = hit split aces (allowed to draw more than one card); DSA = double split aces (not allowed to hit but allowed to double); DDR = Double down rescue.
Don
Ok- the problem was in the bonus rules. I was having non-BJ player 21's lose to dealer BJ.
For S17:
TD: -0.069807764997601%
CD: -0.057736736283162%
For H17:
TD: -0.49608447110252%
CD: -0.478568196287588%
I'll look at specific n-card hands a bit later.
MGP
> Yes. Pontoon is the Australian equivalent of Spanish
> 21. Uses 8 Spanish decks. That HE of 1.44% is too
> high, so it will because some of the rules have been
> lost in translation. So I'll list all the rules:
> 1. 8 Spanish decks.
> 2. Same bonuses as SP21.
> 3. SPL1.
> 4. No dealer hole card, BB+1. (This means that you can
> draw to 21, win, and even if the dealer ends up
> drawing a natural, you have already won. NHC is
> extremely player avantageous in Pontoon, and player
> disadvantageous in BJ.)
> If the dealer gets Blackjack, BB+1 means that you lose
> all busted bets plus one other bet. So if you split
> eights to two hands, and get 24 on one (a bust) and 18
> on the other, and the dealer gets a natural, you end
> up losing both bets: the busted bet, plus one other.
> If you got 18 on both, you'd lose just one bet. This
> rule is called BB+1 ("Busted bets plus
> one").
> Another example: you double on 11 against Ace, and
> dealer gets BJ. You only lose one bet, not two. If you
> drew X on your double, and dealer got a natural, you
> still won two bets against a dealer natural.
> 5. No soft doubling (because Ace=1 in pre-double
> hands)
> 6. Forfeit allowed after doubling.
> 7. Double on any number of cards.
> 8. Double on any hard hand total.
> 9. One card only on each split Ace.
> 10. Late surrender (but ignore this, because you don't
> surrender in Basic Strategy Pontoon because dealer has
> hole card, so if dealer gets natural, you lose your
> entire bet anyway, even if you've surrendered.) So in
> BS, we don't surrender in Pontoon.
> 11. 21 always wins, even against dealer natural.
> 12. Player natural always gets 3:2.
> 13. NO redoubling.
> BTW, what do HSA, DSA, DAN, and DDR mean?
> If DAN means "double any number of cards",
> well, yes, it is DAN. All Sp21 has DAN, and all
> Pontoone xcept Malaysia and South Australia.
> Optimal strategy is the same as H17 Spanish 21,
> EXCEPT: no surrenders (all surrenders replaced by
> hits), hit A-A versus A, 11 vs X is D4, 11 vs A is D4,
> always hit soft 17 or less, for soft 18 the strategy
> is S4 S4 S4 s4 S4 S6 S4 H H H (for 2 through Ace), for
> soft 19 versus 10 is S5, soft 19 versus Ace is S5.
I am only comparing now the strategies for the hands mentioned above. I did not look at every total vs upcard so I cannot say that the rest of the strategy is the same as that for H17 SP21.
Pontoon will mean the rules as you described in a nearby post and SP21 will refer to H17 SP21 without redoubling since redoubling is not allowed in Pontoon.
1) No surrenders: Agreed
2) No soft doubling: Agreed
3) The only split vs A/T is 88 vs T. In SP21 you should split AA vs A/T and 88 vs T
4) In Pontoon you should not split 22 and 33 vs 2 but you should in SP21
5) You should not double 11 vs A or T: In SP21 you should double 2 card 11 vs A and T but not 3 or more card 11.
6) 7 card S17 should be doubled vs 456 in Pontoon.
For SP21 you should double the following S17's:
2 and 7 card hands vs 4; 2, 3 and 7 card hands vs 5; 2, 3, 4 and 7 card hands vs 6.
If doing an n card or more strategy you should hit 3 or more vs 4, 4 or more vs 5 and 5 or more vs 6 and double otherwise vs 4-6.
7) The following is the Pontoon strategy for S18:
Always stand vs 7 and hit vs 9, T, A.
Hit 4, 5 and 6 card hands vs 2-6 and 8 and stand otherwise except Double 7 cards hands vs 4-6 and double 5 card hands vs 6.
If you just want strategy for n cards or more then Stand vs 2-6 and 8 and Hit 4 or more cards for those. Is that what S4 means?
For SP21:
Always stand vs 7 and hit vs 9, T, A.
Hit 4, 5 and 6 card hands vs 2,3 and 8 and stand otherwise
Hit 4, 5 and 6 card hands vs 4, 5 and 6 card hands vs 5 and 6 card hands vs 6 and double otherwise
8) For Pontoon S19:
Hit 5 and 6 card hands vs T/A and stand otherwise. If doing n card or more then Hit 5 or more card S19 vs A/T.
For SP21:
Always stand on S19
MGP
> 3) The only split vs A/T is 88 vs T. In SP21 you
> should split AA vs A/T and 88 vs T
No, you also split A-A versus T.
> 4) In Pontoon you should not split 22 and 33 vs 2 but
> you should in SP21
No. Same as SP21.
> 5) You should not double 11 vs A or T: In SP21 you
> should double 2 card 11 vs A and T but not 3 or more
> card 11.
No. In Pontoon, it's D4 D4. That's because you lose only the original bet if dealer gets natural.
> 6) 7 card S17 should be doubled vs 456 in Pontoon.
8 card 21s pay the same as 7 card 21s. Besides, the chance of getting a 7-card S17 is so slim ( you split your first two Aces) that it has no effect. leave it out.
> For SP21 you should double the following S17's:
> 2 and 7 card hands vs 4; 2, 3 and 7 card hands vs 5;
> 2, 3, 4 and 7 card hands vs 6.
There is no 8-card bonus, so play does not depend on 7-card hands.
> If doing an n card or more strategy you should hit 3
> or more vs 4, 4 or more vs 5 and 5 or more vs 6 and
> double otherwise vs 4-6.
No. There is no 4-card 21 bonus, so hit/stand stiff hand strategy never depends on 3 cards.
> 7) The following is the Pontoon strategy for S18:
> Always stand vs 7 and hit vs 9, T, A.
> Hit 4, 5 and 6 card hands vs 2-6 and 8 and stand
> otherwise except Double 7 cards hands vs 4-6 and
> double 5 card hands vs 6.
The strategy is S4 S4 S4 S4 S6 S4 H H H (for 2 through Ace).
> If you just want strategy for n cards or more then
> Stand vs 2-6 and 8 and Hit 4 or more cards for those.
> Is that what S4 means?
S4 means stand, but hit if 4 or more cards.
What I need you to do: go to WizardofOdds.com and have a look at SP21 basic strategy (and the rules). Pontoon is the same game as Sp21 with some very minor rule variations. Once you've had a look at wizardofodds.com, we'll discuss more about Pontoon.
It is difficult because you don't play the game. There are some assumptions going on about the rules that we are a long way from sorting out.
The problem is that Wild Bill's H17 EORs are nothing like your S17 EORs.
Also, my simulations do not suggest EORs like that.
There is no way that changing one rule (H17 to S17) is going to make that much of a difference.
Given that BJ and SP21 are the same game, with a few rule variations, the EORs are not going to be so contrasted with BJ.
I believe that your logic is correct.
I believe the problem is not with you, but with the rules. Someone has given you bizarrely wrong rules. For starters, you shouldn't have any 7-card plays because there are no 8-card bonuses.
Go to wizardofodds.com/spanish21 and get the rules.
Also, Pontoon is the same game as Spanish 21. There are very few differences. This, there are very few differences in Basic Strategy.
I know you don't play, but I really recommend going to the table and seeing how the game is played. That plus wizardofodds.com will sort everything out.
People get very confused about Pontoon because the same name refers to two completely different games. Pontoon refers to a weird English version of Blackjack that has strange plays like a "twist". 52-card deck used.
Conversely, Australian Pontoon is just Spanish 21 without a hole card.
Someone emailed me thinking that your Pontoon BS on "International Scene" was for Aussie Pontoon. So to avoid confusion, call the game either British Pontoon or Australian Pontoon.
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