jimbiggs: One hand vs. two hands. Need help.

[jimbiggs]

I was running some sims with CVDATA and the info I'm getting back is confusing me. I know this is probably an old topic for you experts, but I need to know if I'm doing something wrong.

I had come to understand that if a player split his bets to two hands in a positive count, then he would win at the same rate and lower his ROR. I've been playing this way for about a year now. This weekend I ran some sims and the results have me confused.

With four players, this S17 DAS LS 70% pen 1-16 spread game has a win rate of 2.6 units per hour. When I split the bets to two hands the win rate gets killed. I've ran several sims and I've gotten different results. They seem to average out to winning one unit per hour.

After reading some other threads here and there I ran another sim where I increased the total bet size on two hands and the win rate is still one unit per hour.

So my questions are, why are my results so bad when all the experts are saying to split to two hands when there are other players at the table? Am I doing something wrong with the sim?

I'd appreciate any help you could provide.

jimbiggs

[Don Schlesinger]

> I was running some sims with CVDATA and the info I'm
> getting back is confusing me. I know this is probably
> an old topic for you experts, but I need to know if
> I'm doing something wrong.

You're doing something wrong.

> I had come to understand that if a player split his
> bets to two hands in a positive count, then he would
> win at the same rate and lower his ROR.

Correct.

> I've been
> playing this way for about a year now. This weekend I
> ran some sims and the results have me confused.

> With four players, this S17 DAS LS 70% pen 1-16 spread
> game has a win rate of 2.6 units per hour.

Well, I got 2.98, but not matter. In dollars, it was about $30, using $10 units.

> When I
> split the bets to two hands

And changed the unit to $5, right?

> the win rate gets killed.
> I've ran several sims and I've gotten different
> results. They seem to average out to winning one unit
> per hour.

Mine was 6 units per hour, and almost the identical hourly win. You're doing something wrong. Also, I played two hands all the time (using CVCX). I didn't think you could play two hands at just some counts and not others. Maybe Norm added that feature, but I didn't think so.

> After reading some other threads here and there I ran
> another sim where I increased the total bet size on
> two hands and the win rate is still one unit per hour.

Well, obviously, you know that's wrong.

> So my questions are, why are my results so bad when
> all the experts are saying to split to two hands when
> there are other players at the table? Am I doing
> something wrong with the sim?

Yes.

> I'd appreciate any help you could provide.

Check your settings.

Don

[Norm Wattenberger]

How are you splitting your bets in two? You know they can't be half as large?

[jimbiggs]

> How are you splitting your bets in two? You know they
> can't be half as large?

Thank you Don and Norm for your help and taking the time to respond. I've checked my settings and I still cannot figure out why this is going wrong. On my most recent sim, I used the Multi-tracking simulator to put both the one hand player and the two hand player on the same sim. I also added two average players for a total of four players.

Both players won 1.8 units per hour, which is still well below the 3 units per hour won in Don's sim. I'd like to figure out what is wrong. Is there any way you can double check me using CVData?

The game is S17 DAS LS 70%pen spreading 1-16. For one hand I used 10, 20, 60, 100, 120, 160. For two hands I used 10, 20, 2x30, 2x50, 2x60, 2x80. 250 million rounds, 100 hands per hour.

[Don Schlesinger]

> How are you splitting your bets in two? You know they
> can't be half as large?

I took it that that's what he's doing, because he said he wanted the same EV and lower ROR, not larger EV and the same ROR as one hand.

Assuming my way, you should get the same hourly return as one hand, and certainly not less. He's doing something wrong.

Don

[Don Schlesinger]

> Thank you Don and Norm for your help and taking the
> time to respond. I've checked my settings and I still
> cannot figure out why this is going wrong. On my most
> recent sim, I used the Multi-tracking simulator to put
> both the one hand player and the two hand player on
> the same sim. I also added two average players for a
> total of four players.

> Both players won 1.8 units per hour,

Now you're saying they won the same amounts; before you said the one playing two hands won much less than the one-hand player. Have you changed your mind?

> which is still
> well below the 3 units per hour won in Don's sim. I'd
> like to figure out what is wrong. Is there any way you
> can double check me using CVData?

Up to Norm.

> The game is S17 DAS LS 70%pen spreading 1-16. For one
> hand I used 10, 20, 60, 100, 120, 160.

I used optimal betting. You didn't. That accounts for the different win rate.

> For two hands I
> used 10, 20, 2x30, 2x50, 2x60, 2x80.

I wasn't aware you could play two hands only part of the time. Is that possible, Norm?

>250 million rounds, 100 hands per hour.

HANDS per hour, or rounds per hour???? Makes a huge difference!!

Don

[jimbiggs]

> Now you're saying they won the same amounts; before
> you said the one playing two hands won much less than
> the one-hand player. Have you changed your mind?

I didn't change my mind. I ran another sim making the changes noted in my previous post and I got different results.

> Up to Norm.

> I used optimal betting. You didn't. That accounts for
> the different win rate.

> I wasn't aware you could play two hands only part of
> the time. Is that possible, Norm?

> HANDS per hour, or rounds per hour???? Makes a huge
> difference!!

250 million rounds and 100 hands per hour are the default settings.

I've done a lot more sims since my last post and it seems like the software doesn't always perform as expected. I've found that starting a new sim every time gets better results than making changes to a sim and running it again.

What I found in my last set of sims was that the one handed player won 3 units per hour. The two handed player won 2.5 units per hour. Not exactly the results I was looking for, but at least its getting closer. While the one handed player had a higher win rate, his DI and SCORE were slightly lower and his NO was slightly higher. Interesting.

[Norm Wattenberger]

Use TOOLS-EXPORT and send me the file at [email protected]. This packages all the sim files in one zip. But, as Don says the bets are different which would change the win rate.

[Norm Wattenberger]

> I wasn't aware you could play two hands only part of
> the time. Is that possible, Norm?

In CVData yes.

[Norm Wattenberger]

> I've done a lot more sims since my last post and it
> seems like the software doesn't always perform as
> expected. I've found that starting a new sim every
> time gets better results than making changes to a sim
> and running it again.

Sorry, what does this mean?