How to Detect When a Dealor is Dealing Seconds?

**BOND** · 06-13-2012, 07:05 AM

I have been playing Blackjack in a foreign country with little or no oversight by gambling authorities and I suspect the dealers might be dealing seconds from the 6d shoe.Often the dealors do a double pass to pull the card out of the shoe. Their hand reaches to pull the card out of the shoe and does not pull the card out, then the dealer reaches again and pulls out the card.Any similar experiences from players here in the forum?

**BOND** · 06-13-2012, 07:26 AM

Originally Posted by BOND

I have been playing Blackjack in a foreign country with little or no oversight by gambling authorities and I suspect the dealers might be dealing seconds from the 6d shoe.Often the dealors do a double pass to pull the card out of the shoe. Their hand reaches to pull the card out of the shoe and does not pull the card out, then the dealer reaches again and pulls out the card.Any similar experiences from players here in the forum?

A dealor dealing seconds is definitely a negative EV game. I became suspicious after a series of losing streaks and when the dealors would repeatedly do a double pass to pull out cards from the shoe; it appeared they were having trouble pulling the card out, so they would do a second pass to pull the card out from the shoe. I still am not 100% sure the dealors are dealing seconds. The casino is very professional and opens the table showing the front and back sides of all 312 cards. I did not see any markings or impressions on the cards.

**RWM** · 06-13-2012, 08:58 AM

Is there a brush or skirt covering the face of the card? If not you should be able to see the back of the card sitting in the shoe. To deal the second they have to push that card up to get to the card underneath. I have never run into this, but have seen the shoes that are built for this. When I have run into cheating in foreign countries it has been short shoes and very obvious.

**BJGenius007** · 06-13-2012, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by BOND

A dealor dealing seconds is definitely a negative EV game. I became suspicious after a series of losing streaks and when the dealors would repeatedly do a double pass to pull out cards from the shoe; it appeared they were having trouble pulling the card out, so they would do a second pass to pull the card out from the shoe. I still am not 100% sure the dealors are dealing seconds. The casino is very professional and opens the table showing the front and back sides of all 312 cards. I did not see any markings or impressions on the cards.

You need to wear special lens to see the marks on face cards and ace cards. Dealers can allocate face card to bust a player's hand or make himself a good hand. That is the beauty of dealing seconds.

And it is highly likely that the casino is cheating if the shoe has no skirt and the rules are too good to be true.

**RWM** · 06-13-2012, 11:18 AM

By the way, another tell for dealing 2nds is to watch the dealers eyes. The shoe may have a prism in the top that allows them to see what the top card is. If the dealer is constantly looking at the shoe that would be a possible sign since this is not normal. It would be possible to have some tactile way of knowing the top card, but I would say that these methods are all pretty unlikely. Most cheating casinos are just not very sophisticated.

It would help if you named the country.

**BOND** · 06-13-2012, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by RWM

Is there a brush or skirt covering the face of the card? If not you should be able to see the back of the card sitting in the shoe. To deal the second they have to push that card up to get to the card underneath. I have never run into this, but have seen the shoes that are built for this. When I have run into cheating in foreign countries it has been short shoes and very obvious.

Yes, there is a brush covering most of the back face of the cardin the shoe. If I had a high speed camera pointed at the shoe, it would be easy to record the dealor dealing seconds. Unfortunately, the dealor's hand is faster than the naked eye.

**AussiePlayer** · 06-14-2012, 01:37 AM

The shoes RWM is talking about:

**AussiePlayer** · 06-14-2012, 01:39 AM

Closer look at the prism:

**BOND** · 06-14-2012, 07:19 AM

Originally Posted by RWM

By the way, another tell for dealing 2nds is to watch the dealers eyes. The shoe may have a prism in the top that allows them to see what the top card is. If the dealer is constantly looking at the shoe that would be a possible sign since this is not normal. It would be possible to have some tactile way of knowing the top card, but I would say that these methods are all pretty unlikely. Most cheating casinos are just not very sophisticated.It would help if you named the country.

This BJ game technically has an off-the-top player advantage: ES, S17, DAS, ENHC, DOA2, 7d (it is not a 6d game as I originally posted above), penetration=66% If the dealors are dealing seconds, I suspect the dealors are using a tactile method. I will revisit this casino in July and I will post more observations in this thread.