MJ: Eliot Jacobson consulting for casinos...

[Felix Rue-de-Guerre]

> In these cases where players cross the line, my main
> concern is for those players that gave the man at his
> site their personal information. This is an area that
> is not often discussed on these blackjack sites, but
> should. Those that run the sites have all our personal
> information and if they decide to cross the street,
> that database goes right along with them!

> My 2-cents!

> Regards,
> PM

For Eliot to use any cc.com information to actually help a casino catch any one of us would require him to actively make some pretty unethical decisions.

Anyone who has followed the cc.com forums for the last few years knows there were some fairly controversial moments. Eliot's handling of such situations speaks volumes for his sense of fairness and ethics.

I really wouldn't worry about this.
-Felix

[Praying Mantis]

> Ahhh. There was no need to give name or address to
> post. And the other books and software sold on his
> site actually passed directly through to BJ21. I don't
> know how he handled his own book purchases. But, I
> wouldn't think it would be attached in any way to
> posts.

Hey, I ordered from his site. Are you telling me that he DIDN'T have access to the information of who, when and where purchased it? Of course he does.

> Sounds simple. But they certainly don't care about
> everyone that has ever posted or bought a book. And
> the forum software I've looked at doesn't contain
> handles in the name/address files. The DB contains the
> passwords used to get to the forum directory. Now it
> would be possible to find the password used for a
> particular post and then look that up in the DB and
> then use that against player cards. But that's a lot
> of work considering the architecture behind these
> "databases" is antique. So yes there is a
> potential problem. Just hard to believe anyone is
> going through the effort required to bother someone
> they don't even know is making a profit.

I'm not talking about the forums. I'm talking about the database of those that give their names, credit cards, etc. If that information is given to casinos, then they have us made...IF we use our real names on player's cards. Call me a little paranoid, but I think paranoia is warranted here!

> I agree. But we are far more vulnerable when playing
> or physically meeting someone. You can never tell if
> the long-time AP you chat with at a bar is really a
> long-time casino employee. It happens. I'll tell you a
> funny one. About a year ago someone posted anonymously
> on BJ21 GC that it is dangerous to post at AP.com
> because your PC will be somehow tracked. There was a
> big brouhaha as it was an anonymous (and absurd)
> attack and should have been deleted. Stanford refused
> to remove the post indicating it was a legitimate
> customer complaint and saying it was a long-term GC
> member. (Of course he looked in his database to get
> this info.) Having struck a blow against this site;
> the poster was admitted into another site's private
> "player's forum." After being admitted into
> the private club, he was later caught trying to sell
> info about the other members of the site to a casino.

I remember, and it was silly. I guess the only way you have nothing to worry about is to stay completely anonymous by staying completely away from BJ sites, never meet any other APs, don't give out your credit cards on any player's site, and keep your mouth shut.

Hell, I failed them all! I'm done!

Regards,
PM

[Norm Wattenberger]

> Hey, I ordered from his site. Are you telling me that
> he DIDN'T have access to the information of who, when
> and where purchased it? Of course he does.

Seems unlikely. His books/software page actually linked to BJ21. If you ordered from that page, BJ21 got the info. So, it went in their DB. You could look at the links and see this. He just got a periodic check for the referals. I don't know how he handled his own books. I can't believe he got a merchant account to sell one book. It's a royal pain in the ass. I sell books on my site. They are Amazon links. I have no idea who buys what books from my site.

> I'm not talking about the forums. I'm talking about
> the database of those that give their names, credit
> cards, etc. If that information is given to casinos,
> then they have us made...IF we use our real names on
> player's cards. Call me a little paranoid, but I think
> paranoia is warranted here!

Paranoia is needed. But, misaimed paranoia is wasteful. Any idea how many BJ books are sold in a year? The casinos would love to have that list. They would send everyone on the list free promos.

> I remember, and it was silly. I guess the only way you
> have nothing to worry about is to stay completely
> anonymous by staying completely away from BJ sites,
> never meet any other APs, don't give out your credit
> cards on any player's site, and keep your mouth shut.

In any profession there is a balance. I was taught early in my BJ career to be extremely paranoid. Problem is, that makes BJ a dismal, lonely business. It also means missed opportunity. If you become too open, and it can shorten your effectiveness. As in all things, you need to find a good balance.

[Parker]

> I'm not talking about the forums. I'm talking about
> the database of those that give their names, credit
> cards, etc. If that information is given to casinos,
> then they have us made...IF we use our real names on
> player's cards. Call me a little paranoid, but I think
> paranoia is warranted here!

First off, I don't think that Eliot would sell his database. While Eliot and I have certainly had our disagreements over the years, he has never given me any reason to question his integrity.

Even if he were to offer the database to the highest bidding casino, I doubt that he would have many takers. They would be getting a list of newbies, wannabes, people with a purely acadamic interest in the game, low rollers, and maybe, just maybe, a few serious AP's.

Besides, catching counters isn't exactly rocket science. All they have to do is toss anyone who is betting big and spreading big. No database needed.

> I remember, and it was silly. I guess the only way you
> have nothing to worry about is to stay completely
> anonymous by staying completely away from BJ sites,
> never meet any other APs, don't give out your credit
> cards on any player's site, and keep your mouth shut.

And most importantly, don't play! You might lose your bankroll.


Paranoia srikes deep
Into your life it will creep
Starts when you're always afraid
Step outa line, the man come and take you away

Singin' Stop! Hey, what's that sound, everybody look what's goin' round.

Oops, sorry. %#&*ing flashbacks!

[Norm Wattenberger]

[AutomaticMonkey]

> ... This
> morning I am sitting at home, with a laptop on my
> kitchen table, looking out the window at a beautiful
> Southern California morning, NPR on in the background...

You're listening to NPR? What are you, some kind of communist?!?!?! Ha ha, the truth is out!

Really though, I completely understand the attraction of gaming in the general sense. All those games you play, I play too. Other than casino games probably Scrabble and bridge are my best games.

It's like Rush Limbaugh and Arnold Snyder say- the most important thing is to do what you love. I could never give up engineering and science to play BJ full time (well, maybe for a month or two just to see what it's like!) But taking off the pocket protector and putting on the diamond cufflinks will always be a pleasure as a part-time thing. I guess that's what people see in cross-dressing.

As far as ethics go, in my opinion the only unethical thing a person can do when they "cross over" is betray trusts. Saying "That guy over there who looks like a monkey, I know him, he's a card counter and even worse. You don't want him anywhere near your casino."- that's betraying a trust. "I played on a team and this is the technique we used"- betraying a trust. Teaching people information that's already in the public domain obviously can't make you any more unethical than the person who wrote the book or the article in the first place. Creating new games and bets for the casino is a great thing, from the perspective of AP's. Every game that exists in a casino has been used by some AP, for cover if not for profit. There's a new game that I won't mention that's getting hammered right now.

Good luck to you man, and don't ever forget where you came from!

[Sun Runner]

> And, they throw a contract at you with a s**tload of
> zeros on it. What will be your response?

I don't know what his would be but mine would most likely be "show me the money." (You did say a s**tload.) I'd make a bet that Parker's would be also; and probably Praying Mantis would do the same.

The decision to develope the next Mind Play does not equate to selling out your database; that would be a selling of your honor and not a fair comparison to a selling of your time and intelligence.

I would trust (and I do) that EJ has the nuts to keep private matters private. Parker seems to think he does and at this point is good enough for me.

After that, to think EJ or anyone else should artificially limit their ability to knock a home run financially to protect us rubes is crazy talk.

They do what they can, we do what we can, and so it goes. Already they have the knowledge, technical savy, and ability to shut down BJ if they choose to. Apparently, they can't, yet, because they haven't.

It won't be EJ's fault when they do.

-----------

Ultimately it's our own responsibility to keep our affairs private.

Right now, due to the many internet conversations and financial transactions I have had with them, Viktor or Bettie could get in their car and drive straight to my house; I'm sure of it (would be a crashing bore, but I digress). Why Norm seems to have such a problem with that concept, I'm at a loss. To that end, I made a decision to try and limit my exposure, and place my trust, in as few as possible.

I have limited my personal information to this place and QFIT (I think!). Probably why I don't join Green Chip -just more exposure. I had some email conversation with GSN recently but they still don't know my real name.

(Yes Viktor, we know you have a policy, blah, blah, blah, and I for one, trust you. If you did go dark though, and I found out you sold my information .. well, just don't let it happen!)

We are not talking about selling National secrets here.

Give the guy a break.

[Norm Wattenberger]

> Right now, due to the many internet conversations and
> financial transactions I have had with them, Viktor or
> Bettie could get in their car and drive straight to my
> house; I'm sure of it (would be a crashing bore, but I
> digress). Why Norm seems to have such a problem with
> that concept, I'm at a loss.

Because I'Net transactions are handled differently by different people. bj21, ap.com, qfit.com handle many transactions. That's worth getting merchant accounts with the six organizations required to handle credit card transactions. CC.com had no subscripions and sold books and software via affiliate links to BJ21. Very different since the site took no cards and shipped nothing.

I have no dog in this hunt. I'm just saying that we shouldn't get too carried away.

[BlackJackHack]

It always seems incongruous to me that there are BJ experts (some real, some self-appointed) who never really made any money actually playing BJ -- the guys who give out lots of advice but play with stacks of red chips at the Plaza. I'm sure I've spent A LOT less time studying and playing the game than Eliot has, but I play with big stacks of black chips.

While I don't doubt that Eliot has an intrinsic academic interest in gaming (as do all of us), there comes a point in time where, if you are committing serious time to the endeavor, you have to turn it into something tangible.

Eliot is a guy in his mid-forties who is clearly not on any tenure track, or fast track to much of anything other than second-tier blackjack celebrity, living in one of the most expensive small cities in America. He's probably an excellent technical BJ player, but doesn't have enough bankroll to play for real money, and doesn't have enough modesty, or a good enough of an act, to play under cover.

It probably wasn't hard for him to figure out that he could make a hell of a lot more money working for the casinos than he could either playing BJ or selling BJ books. What would most people do in that situation? Duh.

Is there any ethical problem with this? Probably not, although it does make all of us feel really icky, doesn't it? I need a shower.

[Ouchez]

do you really believe that you are a better player, more skilled and win more because you play with "stacks of black chips in front of you"?

Actually you should have more red and green chips in front of you than black. You will see more neutral or negative counts than good plus counts and you surely don't want to be betting black at those times...right. (Besides why draw attention to oneself....unless you have a need to do so.)

As for Eliot, he is doing what he feels is best for him at the present time. He has broken no laws and has always acted as a gentleman in the past. I see no cause to heap scorn, insult and ridicule upon him, as has been done with great viciousness on 2 other BJ sites.

Really most disgusting.

Ouchez.

[BlackJackHack]

Never said I was a better player, at least not in terms of technical ability (in fact, I suggested Eliot was probably a better technical player due to the apparent amount of time he devoted the endeavor, although I would have no way of knowing). I just wonder why Eliot, and other technically proficient players, keep grinding away for such miniscule stakes.

My reference to "stacks" of red chips or black chips referred to the stakes being played for, not literally to the stacks physically located in front of the player, which I thought should have been rather obvious. Much of my "stacks" of black chips mysteriously migrate to my pockets.

While I can't say I'm not disappointed in his decision, I certainly don't think I intended to heap "scorn and ridicule" on the guy - he did what 90% of humanity would have done in his situation.