I read a few weeks ago in the bj21 newsletter that there is a new system in place in a few casinos that basiclly spell the end for counting. In a nut shell a computer can tell what cards are dealt to whom, and how much a player bets. It can then identify the skill of a player and how much to comp them (or 86 them). Is this going to become wide spread or will it not last like the constant shuffle machines?
(apologies to Mark Twain).
You're talking about MindPlay, which has actually been around for a few years. You can use the search function at the top of the index page to search for "MindPlay" and you will find several threads discussing it.
I don't see it actually becoming widespread, for the following reasons:
1. Everybody actually involved with using it (dealers, pit critters, players) hates it.
2. It is expensive.
3. It can be beaten.
Note that the Las Vegas Flamingo, one of the first casinos to install MindPlay tables, has recently removed them.
I played against Mindplay both when it was at the Vegas Hilton and also in Reno at the El Dorado. Played with no problems, the thing also broke down, the pit hated it and the dealers all cursed it, but I also always kept my sessions short.
There are presently exactly 0 Mindplay machines in Vegas! The thing promises the casino, the reduction of pit and surviellance staff, less comps, catching cheats and catching advantage players.
What the thing actually delivers is a nice profit for the seller ($19,000 per table), less hands dealt per hour, pits that hate it because it might take their job, dealers who hate it perhaps because it is more work and less hands equals less tokes,and players who hate and go somewhere else to play blackjack. So the total result is for the price of $19,000, you make less money on your blackjack tables.
Now it might work in an area where the casino has no competition and they can force it on players, but in an area like Vegas it just will not work.
All this means that Mindplay is not the death of blackjack. Of more concern, to me, is that more casinos are going to games with worse rules than before. The recent lower profits in Nevada from blackjack was explained by casino shills that the rules had to be worsened because of advantage players. It was a ridiculous answer. They made more money when the rules were better but a few advantage players made money also. So they change the rules and they make less money with these rules, but they blame it on advantage players. Pure double speak! Simply put, given two choices, make 100 million but let a few advantage players make less than a million, or make 90 million and do not let an advantage player make a cent, these guys choose making less money so no one else can make any.
So the threat to blackjack, in my opinion, is the 6/5 table, the bastardization of the game (super fun 21, spanish 21), H-17 on more games, and other bad rules or game changes.
Greed quite often equals stupidity.
Victoria
Well said Victoria! Hear hear!
> I read a few weeks ago in the bj21 newsletter that
> there is a new system in place in a few casinos that
> basiclly spell the end for counting. In a nut shell a
> computer can tell what cards are dealt to whom, and
> how much a player bets. It can then identify the skill
> of a player and how much to comp them (or 86 them). Is
> this going to become wide spread or will it not last
> like the constant shuffle machines?
For once, public reaction has forced the casinos to remove this new measure. Pit critters hate it because it breaks down, slows the game, and believe that human beings like themselves can monitor the game without the use of a computer. The few casinos that have it have since removed it from their tables. Now, only if the public would avoid 6:5 like the plague.
> For once, public reaction has forced the casinos to
> remove this new measure. Pit critters hate it because
> it breaks down, slows the game, and believe that human
> beings like themselves can monitor the game without
> the use of a computer. The few casinos that have it
> have since removed it from their tables. Now, only if
> the public would avoid 6:5 like the plague.
6:5 seems to be losing steam. A couple of casinos started advertising that they only deal 3:2 (Circus Circus in Reno, for example) and next to a billboard like that, 6:5 is about as popular as margarine on popcorn.
If they want a bigger hold, they can always put in 3CP tables which have a bigger house advantage and more popularity than 6:5 BJ anyway, without irritating the serious BJ players. Still, the only tables in a casino that you will regularly find full are standard, hand-dealt BJ games and the casinos know it.
The trend I do like is all the new sidebets available. They increase the hold for the casinos and at the same time, almost all of them are at least nominally beatable using some AP technique or another. Win-win.
> The trend I do like is all the new sidebets available.
> They increase the hold for the casinos and at the same
> time, almost all of them are at least nominally
> beatable using some AP technique or another. Win-win.
The thing I don't like about side bets is they tend to slow the game. I'd like to see a short list of side bets and the house edge off the top. I'd think its' quite high.
> I'd like to see a short list of side bets and the house
> edge off the top. I'd think its' quite high.
Here's a short list of a few popular ones. As you said, the house edge is quite high on many of them. The card counter's advantage can also be quite high on some.
-Sonny-
> Here's a short list of a few popular ones. As you
> said, the house edge is quite high on many of them.
> The card counter's advantage can also be quite high on
> some.
> -Sonny-
Oh yes, one of those bets (the Sweet Sixteen) was hammered so hard that it no longer exists. Another one (that I won't name) is very beatable and is dealt in only one store in the US that I'm aware of. The Super Sevens is well known to be beatable with counting but unfortunately it's only a $1 sidebet, not really worth it. Lucky Ladies, too. Lots of them can be beaten with NRS techniques.
The oddest thing I ever saw was this "Monopoly" sidebet dealt at the Cal-Neva in Reno. It's a 4D game (which automatically warrants investigation) and if you get a natural, you get to spin this wheel that blows a train whistle and awards prizes fashioned after the Monopoly game. You'd expect to see it played in Atlantic City, not Reno. The ploppies couldn't get enough of it.
Sidebet analysis could make for a very interesting forum all by itself, unfortunately it probably shouldn't be a public one.
Ed:
I have been picking up the pace with my blackjack playing in the last two years, probably playing as much in Las Vegas as I had in the previous six or seven. I play mostly at the "big" places - it helps to be at tables where guys are throwing around purple chips like pieces of candy and there are dozens, if not hundreds, of people playing blackjack. I have never been barred. I have never been backed off. If I was under any heat in this period it was so minor that I managed to deflect it pretty quickly. I may not be the best card counter that the world has ever seen, but my "act" is superb, if I do say so myself.
I, too, am concerned about the Mind Play system. But I am not about to let the chance of it being used against me keep me out of the casinos. If I'm caught, I'm caught. I'll learn and move on. How many casinos are there now in the United States? About 50,000?! Seriously, there are now over 100 places in Clark County, Nevada, alone to play blackjack. And don't forget that there are three shifts per casino. Even after weeding out the burn joints, the field will always be wide open.
Anyway, I can't emphasize enough the importance of blending into your environment and appearing to be non-threatening. Do not give the bosses a reason to worry about you and start up with Mind Play. (Who the heck has this, anyway? Does anybody have any information?) Hint: make a profile of what the bosses assume is an AP and then you look and behave the opposite. If you can perform in this manner without ever missing cards or losing the running count (I assume the playing indices are burned into your memory), you will be surprised at what you can get away with.
Good luck and never stop studying and thinking.
Jackie Chiles
Victoria:
Thanks for the valuable post. But I do have a question: Can you at least hint at the source of your statement concerning the total lack of Mindplay in Las Vegas? I'd love to know where to get this sort of stuff.
By the way, I have to wonder if 6/5 is a threat or not. It's a sucker game, but how popular is it really? The people who play this game know just enough to hurt themselves. They have heard that single deck is the best - I could make some strong counterarguments - so that's where they go. They, of course, lose their shirts in short order. It would be interesting how many of them, after getting wiped out, manage to figure out what was being done to them. It would also be interesting to know how many of them would never even consider playing a shoe game because they are convinced that it can never be beat.
I have talked to a number of pretty poor players about these 6/5 games while playing at six deck shoes. Without exception, even these people understand that the awful payout on naturals is a complete ripoff. Let's see where 6/5 is two years from now.
Jackie Chiles
Jackie
Only two casinos in Vegas have ever had Mindplay. I have been in the Hilton many times since it was removed. My source for the Flamingo came from another blackjack site and was later confirmed.
Victoria
> Victoria:
> Thanks for the valuable post. But I do have a
> question: Can you at least hint at the source of your
> statement concerning the total lack of Mindplay in Las
> Vegas? I'd love to know where to get this sort of
> stuff.
> By the way, I have to wonder if 6/5 is a threat or
> not. It's a sucker game, but how popular is it really?
> The people who play this game know just enough to hurt
> themselves. They have heard that single deck is the
> best - I could make some strong counterarguments - so
> that's where they go. They, of course, lose their
> shirts in short order. It would be interesting how
> many of them, after getting wiped out, manage to
> figure out what was being done to them. It would also
> be interesting to know how many of them would never
> even consider playing a shoe game because they are
> convinced that it can never be beat.
> I have talked to a number of pretty poor players about
> these 6/5 games while playing at six deck shoes.
> Without exception, even these people understand that
> the awful payout on naturals is a complete ripoff.
> Let's see where 6/5 is two years from now.
> Jackie Chiles
Posting Permissions
-*-
Bookmarks