MJ: Illustrious 18

[Parker]

> What about splitting 10s vs 5 and 6? Do you
> consider these 2 plays to be in the top 4
> indice plays excluding insurance for KO?

> The KO authors never provided indice values
> for the 10 splits due to heat
> considerations. Nevertheless I am
> considering implementing them in hopes of
> gaining additional EV. Would this be a
> worthwhile addition? If so would it be
> difficult to set up a SIM to generate the
> indice values for these 2 plays? Thanks for
> any further help.

You don't need a sim. In the reduced, rounded matrix spirit of KO, just split them against dealer 5 or 6 at/above the pivot point. If you want to fine-tune it a little, split against a 5 at/above (pivot+1). You could run a sim for the exact game conditions, but I'm betting that this would be within an integer, and the gain from using the exact indexes would be insignificant.

Getting away with it is another matter entirely. As discussed elsewhere in this thread, splitting 10's is arguably the strategy deviation most likely to draw heat.

[Parker]

Pit critters have a saying: "Nobody splits tens except idiots and card counters." You obviously found a casino with a lot of idiots. :-)

You were able to quickly discern that they were not card counters. Why would you think that the pit cannot do the same?

Of course, it undoubtedly is easier to look like an idiot while surrounded by shining examples.

[MJ]

Thanks Parker. I recall somebody said with TKO you should split 10s vs 5 and 6 at Pivot +1.

So in order to be on the safe side and perhaps even reduce variance what I think I'll do is split 10s vs 6 at +5 and 10s vs 5 at +6. I will be playing in primarily shoe games. But would these indice numbers be correct regardless of the number of decks in play??

It would be great if somebody ran a sim for the precise indice numbers. Its always nice to verify a theory(no matter how correct it appears to be)just to be on the safe side.

-MJ

[Don Schlesinger]

> It would be great if somebody ran a sim for
> the precise indice numbers. Its always nice
> to verify a theory(no matter how correct it
> appears to be)just to be on the safe side.

BJRM's "Systems 101" has the K-O 10-splitting indices vs. 5 and 6 for all numbers of decks, all depths, one deck at a time, up to 8 decks, plus the TKO indices.

Do you not have BJRM?

Don

[suicyco maniac]

Just last night while playing 2 spots I split 10s to 3 hands on my first spot and to 4 hands on the second spot (in fact I would have split to 5 but they dont allow it) then on the very next round I split to 3 hands again and even caught another paint but the last one dropped the count too far. Of course this is in a casino full of idiots where the guy next to me was hitting hard 17s and actually doubled a hard 19. SM

[Titan5]

When you split 10s vs 6 and you get an ace, would you double it for 10-A hand? Although I don't have a good calculation I think most of the time this play is not that far off as an advantage play. If people think you might be crazy in splitting 10s, this will certainly make them think you are really crazy. However,I would not double after splitting 10s vs 5.

[MJ]

Despite reading all the wonderful comments about it I do not have it. The whole point behind KO is simplicity. How does it help to have indice values based upon depth? That would give me a whole bunch of indices to learn for just a single play! Then I would have to practice discard estimation to learn how far into the shoe I am. Although I realize the indice values given in Systems 101 can always be used for an approximation I would rather just get the "one index fits all" values.

Also the author never published all the indice values that the KO SIM was based upon(IE 10 splits). So for any plays which were not a part of the KO-P and were added to get a complete KO I-18, the user is left to try and estimate these indices based upon depth from Systems 101. If I am going to use the software for calculations, then I need to know ALL the indice values used so I can replicate the playing strategy that was used to generate the SIM. I realize the few plays which were added does not make much of a difference in EV, but why not be as precise as possible and use the exact ones the author used.
It just doesnt make sense to run a SIM and then not reveal all the indice values used for which the playing strategy was based upon.

-MJ

> BJRM's "Systems 101" has the K-O
> 10-splitting indices vs. 5 and 6 for all
> numbers of decks, all depths, one deck at a
> time, up to 8 decks, plus the TKO indices.

> Do you not have BJRM?

> Don

[Don Schlesinger]

> It just doesnt make sense to run a SIM and
> then not reveal all the indice values used
> for which the playing strategy was based
> upon.

Maybe the sellers of the software that creates the indices (CV, SBA) would like you to buy their products! :-)

Don

[Don Schlesinger]

> When you split 10s vs 6 and you get an ace,
> would you double it for 10-A hand? Although
> I don't have a good calculation I think most
> of the time this play is not that far off as
> an advantage play. If people think you might
> be crazy in splitting 10s, this will
> certainly make them think you are really
> crazy. However,I would not double after
> splitting 10s vs 5.

Julian Braun gave Hi-Lo indices for doubling soft 21, after splitting 10s. Against 5 and 6, they are both +8, so I don't see why you'd double against the 6 but not the 5. What's the difference?

Of course, if you aren't already thrown out for splitting the 10s in the first place, doubling on A,10 ought to seal the deal rather quickly!

Don

[Titan5]

> Julian Braun gave Hi-Lo indices for doubling
> soft 21, after splitting 10s. Against 5 and
> 6, they are both +8, so I don't see why
> you'd double against the 6 but not the 5.
> What's the difference?

Based on my earlier observation using my CA program I got an impression that the index difference of 10s vs 5 and 10s vs 6 is about 1 (I didn't do exact calculation). Then I also noticed that the difference of doubling 10-A vs 5 and doubling 10-A vs 6 is also a little more than 1 and off my chart. So I don't see Julian Braun's same indices for dealer 5 and 6. Is there any confirmation on his indices?
Also in my opinion a crazy play like this is more characteristic of a gambler then a card counter.Casinos like gamblers.

[JohnAuston]

BJRM Web Site

[cordeen]

> What about splitting 10s vs 5 and 6? Do you
> consider these 2 plays to be in the top 4
> indice plays excluding insurance for KO?

> The KO authors never provided indice values
> for the 10 splits due to heat
> considerations. Nevertheless I am
> considering implementing them in hopes of
> gaining additional EV. Would this be a
> worthwhile addition? If so would it be
> difficult to set up a SIM to generate the
> indice values for these 2 plays? Thanks for
> any further help.

> -MJ

I never hesitated to split and or resplit 10's if the count called for that play. Of course I didn't play hand held games very often. That play never bit me, except once which was my own fault. (previous post)
I was never barred or asked to leave the casino because of that play. I used the different shifts and casinos so that I was never seen in any one casino more than once every 24 days
Ralph Stricker "Silver Fox"

[cordeen]

> When you split 10s vs 6 and you get an ace,
> would you double it for 10-A hand? Although
> I don't have a good calculation I think most
> of the time this play is not that far off as
> an advantage play. If people think you might
> be crazy in splitting 10s, this will
> certainly make them think you are really
> crazy. However,I would not double after
> splitting 10s vs 5.

I would of yelled out with glee. "Look everybody I got a BJ." The dealer would then tell me it was not a BJ and explain why. I would then act mad and say OK then let's double down this sucker."
While playing I always looked at my watch and made remarks like "My wife's going to kill me if I don't meet her soon." This would give me an excuse to leave after soon that. (Depending on the reaction of the pit.)
Ralph Stricker "Silver Fox"