MJ: CVBJ: Addition of Dealer Errors

[MJ]

I have been meaning to make this suggestion for a while but it always gets put off. Well here goes...

Not too long ago I was playing BJ at Foxwoods. This was a great opportunity to put my KO counting skills to the test and see how far I had come. I was struggling to keep up with this one dealer as she was pretty quick in dealing the cards. Anyway on one hand she actually stood on multi-card 16 thinking she had 17!! I didnt realize it at the time because I was too busy counting the cards rather then adding the dealers total. The guy sitting next to me then said "Wait a minute you need to take another hit!" I then realized the dealer accidentally stood on 16! She then took another hit and busted. The lady sitting next to me then said "I never add the dealers total." The point here is that players might lose money at the tables because of this type of dealer mistake. This error of standing on 16 is just as valid as any other dealer error such as a payoff error, busting a good player's hand, or not paying a winning hand. I think the next version of CVBJ should include a "Dealer stood on 16" error.

Another dealer error which should be incorporated is when a dealer busts but doesnt realize it and think they have a pat hand. For example, a dealer might get a hard 22 but due to carelessness they think they have 21. Maybe a counter is too preoccupied counting(or not paying attention) so they fail to realize it. When this type of mistake goes undetected ALL the players suffer because they would have won(provided they were still in the round.

I bet both these errors occur more often then we realize and cut into everyone's BR. What do you think?

-MJ

[bad speler]

> I have been meaning to make this suggestion
> for a while but it always gets put off. Well
> here goes...

> Not too long ago I was playing BJ at
> Foxwoods. This was a great opportunity to
> put my KO counting skills to the test and
> see how far I had come. I was struggling to
> keep up with this one dealer as she was
> pretty quick in dealing the cards. Anyway on
> one hand she actually stood on multi-card 16
> thinking she had 17!! I didnt realize it at
> the time because I was too busy counting the
> cards rather then adding the dealers total.
> The guy sitting next to me then said
> "Wait a minute you need to take another
> hit!" I then realized the dealer
> accidentally stood on 16! She then took
> another hit and busted. The lady sitting
> next to me then said "I never add the
> dealers total." The point here is that
> players might lose money at the tables
> because of this type of dealer mistake. This
> error of standing on 16 is just as valid as
> any other dealer error such as a payoff
> error, busting a good player's hand, or not
> paying a winning hand. I think the next
> version of CVBJ should include a
> "Dealer stood on 16" error.

> Another dealer error which should be
> incorporated is when a dealer busts but
> doesnt realize it and think they have a pat
> hand. For example, a dealer might get a hard
> 22 but due to carelessness they think they
> have 21. Maybe a counter is too preoccupied
> counting(or not paying attention) so they
> fail to realize it. When this type of
> mistake goes undetected ALL the players
> suffer because they would have won(provided
> they were still in the round.

> I bet both these errors occur more often
> then we realize and cut into everyone's BR.
> What do you think?

> -MJ
If you are to preoccupied counting,or not paying attention then you should still be playing at home,not with real money!

[Parker]

Dealer errors are positive EV for the advantage player, since the astute AP will always catch the dealer error. If it is in the house's favor, he/she will politely bring it to the dealer's attention; if it favors the player, the AP will conveniently overlook the error. Some AP's go out of their way to look for error-prone dealers, others have ethical problems with this.

If you were "struggling to keep up with this one dealer as she was pretty quick in dealing the cards," you definitely need to spend more time with Casino Verite. You should be able to effortlessly keep up with even the fastest dealer, including checking the dealer's total. After all, the faster the dealer, the better your EV. Personally I love fast dealers (and fast cars, and fast women . . . ).

[ET Fan]

[MJ]

First and foremost are these dealer errors worth implementing?? If not, why test the player against any dealer errors in the first place?
IMHO these errors are valid and would help keep the counter on his toes. But you know better then I do as you have tons of real casino experience.

Your right dealer errors are positive EV, IF you can catch the errors that favor the house! From what I understand, most dealer errors are in the house's favor.

I'm definitely not ready for casino action. Although I'm on the right track. The only way to find this out was to step into a casino and play an hour or two against different dealers. I will try again in a couple of months.

So what drills or mode of play would you suggest to speed up my counting ability? What I like to do is wait for the second hard to hit first base and then count in pairs right down to third base. Then I count the dealers upcard and any player hit cards. Then I count the dealers hole card and any subsequent hit cards the dealer takes. I really found it hard to keep up with the fast dealers. The cards came out of the shoe way too fast. I was lucky if I had time to count the cards on the table let alone add the dealers total.

-MJ

> Dealer errors are positive EV for the
> advantage player, since the astute AP will
> always catch the dealer error. If it is in
> the house's favor, he/she will politely
> bring it to the dealer's attention; if it
> favors the player, the AP will conveniently
> overlook the error. Some AP's go out of
> their way to look for error-prone dealers,
> others have ethical problems with this.

> If you were "struggling to keep up with
> this one dealer as she was pretty quick in
> dealing the cards," you definitely need
> to spend more time with Casino Verite. You
> should be able to effortlessly keep up with
> even the fastest dealer, including checking
> the dealer's total. After all, the faster
> the dealer, the better your EV. Personally I
> love fast dealers (and fast cars, and fast
> women . . . ).

[Norm Wattenberger]

I'll add this to the dealer errs.

[Canuck]

I'm still learning counting myself. but to get ready for the casinos I mainly do speed counts... try and go through a deck as fast as possible..

I started with a single deck and Double deck... I remove 3 cards for acuaracy... when I could do a single deck in under 20 seconds average with the average time being over 10 count down attempts. with 100% accuracy and no time over 22 seconds. I replaced that with 6 decks. I still do 10 count downs at a time. my goal for double deck before I replace that with a 8 deck bunch of cards is 40 seconds averaged over 10 attempts with 100% accuracy and no time over 44 seconds. as for 6 deck shoes which I'm working on I'd like to have an average under 2 minutes.

[MJ]

When a player spots a dealer error he should NOT have to wait until the end of the round to press the foul button. In the casino if a dealer failed to make a correct payoff on your BJ would you wait until the end of the round to tell him? How about if he busted a good hand of yours? If your like most of us you would correct him that very moment.

The player should be able to cry FOUL immediately, as soon as it occurs. It just adds to the overall realism of the game.

Thanks,

-MJ

> I'll add this to the dealer errs.

[Norm Wattenberger]

Yep. The original set of dealer errors were all payoff errs. I'll need to move the ability forward.

[Francis Salmon]

You should choose a busy table and take a seat towards the end of the table.This leaves you more time to count the cards before you have to make your playing decision.I'm not sure it's a good idea to wait for the second round of cards to be dealt before starting to count. It's like playing with a handicap.I personally count every card as soon as it hits the felt. You can still count them in pairs that way.
For a first casino test you have to be able to count down a deck in less than 30 seconds. For fast dealers, it would have to be less than 25 seconds.

Francis Salmon

> So what drills or mode of play would you
> suggest to speed up my counting ability?
> What I like to do is wait for the second
> hard to hit first base and then count in
> pairs right down to third base. Then I count
> the dealers upcard and any player hit cards.
> Then I count the dealers hole card and any
> subsequent hit cards the dealer takes. I
> really found it hard to keep up with the
> fast dealers. The cards came out of the shoe
> way too fast. I was lucky if I had time to
> count the cards on the table let alone add
> the dealers total.

> -MJ

[mr k]

MJ,

Just wanted to give you a flip side (I am sure that the info give is correct--for the individual) In my experience players get fatigued alot quicker when they count individually. At least I did. Ultimately you have to be able to do both, however out the gate you should practice so that when you see the initial set of cards, you immediately reference the count. Just like telling time, no one goes 5, 10, 15, 25. Just look and know.

In the end...whatever you are the most comfortable w/ and make the least amount of errors with is the technique you should use. Just understand most people get mentally drained counting individually. If you're not one of those people then great. NOT RIGHT OR WRONG...JUST A FLIP SIDE TO THE RESPONSE. Good luck!

> You should choose a busy table and take a
> seat towards the end of the table.This
> leaves you more time to count the cards
> before you have to make your playing
> decision.I'm not sure it's a good idea to
> wait for the second round of cards to be
> dealt before starting to count. It's like
> playing with a handicap.I personally count
> every card as soon as it hits the felt. You
> can still count them in pairs that way.
> For a first casino test you have to be able
> to count down a deck in less than 30
> seconds. For fast dealers, it would have to
> be less than 25 seconds.

> Francis Salmon

[Francis Salmon]

I don't think a beginner is able to do what you suggest.That's why he is called a beginner.
Your comparison with looking up time is wrong.Either you have a digital watch which shows you the right number or you have hands,where you know the meaning of any position from memory. You don't have to add up anything.
Let me ask you something:How do you count a heap of matches?I don't think you are able to do it like Rainman in this famous filmscene.
Most people will have to count them one by one. Trained people will count them two by two (I never said you have to count cards individually). You can try counting five by five which will be even quicker but certainly less reliable.
Which technique you finally use will depend on your level of practice and to a lesser extent on your mental talents.

Francis Salmon

> MJ,

> Just wanted to give you a flip side (I am
> sure that the info give is correct--for the
> individual) In my experience players get
> fatigued alot quicker when they count
> individually. At least I did. Ultimately you
> have to be able to do both, however out the
> gate you should practice so that when you
> see the initial set of cards, you
> immediately reference the count. Just like
> telling time, no one goes 5, 10, 15, 25.
> Just look and know.

> In the end...whatever you are the most
> comfortable w/ and make the least amount of
> errors with is the technique you should use.
> Just understand most people get mentally
> drained counting individually. If you're not
> one of those people then great. NOT RIGHT OR
> WRONG...JUST A FLIP SIDE TO THE RESPONSE.
> Good luck!

[mr k]

the 5, 10, 15, 20 remark was just an example of how familiar you have to be the cards. Looking at cards should be automatic/like telling time.

> I don't think a beginner is able to do what
> you suggest.That's why he is called a
> beginner.
> Your comparison with looking up time is
> wrong.Either you have a digital watch which
> shows you the right number or you have
> hands,where you know the meaning of any
> position from memory. You don't have to add
> up anything.
> Let me ask you something:How do you count a
> heap of matches?I don't think you are able
> to do it like Rainman in this famous
> filmscene.
> Most people will have to count them one by
> one. Trained people will count them two by
> two (I never said you have to count cards
> individually). You can try counting five by
> five which will be even quicker but
> certainly less reliable.
> Which technique you finally use will depend
> on your level of practice and to a lesser
> extent on your mental talents.

> Francis Salmon