stainless steel rat: Another "question"

[Ouchez]

[ET Fan]

... sequencing with counting, you've got pretty good cover for both. To "know thy enemy" you have to figure out whether the kid in the surveilance booth read Hustler last night or Josh McD's treatise.

Some joints might back you off just for spite, or because they're bored. They don't take it that seriously. Should we?

ETF

[Parker]

> I was just interested in the idea that
> extends something already known... ploppies
> can get backed off for having a good night
> at the wrong store. Is "ace
> tracking" well-known enough to cause a
> problem one might not be thinking about? I
> know I have never given it a second thought,
> until I saw the Radar post about the pit
> jumping on "ace chasers"... even
> if you aren't doing it...

> If this isn't an "issue" that's
> all I wanted to know. A case of "know
> thy enemy..."

It's not an issue.

You're giving them way too much credit. Most floor people barely know correct basic strategy, let alone advanced techniques such as ace sequencing.

As I said in my other post, they see an agressive spread and a player who seems to know what they are doing, and for some, that's enough.

Besides, you never know. Perhaps the surveillance supervisor was training a new guy on the counter-catching software, and you just came along at ther right time. Or maybe you look like the pit critter's ex-wife's new boyfriend. As a pro I know is fond of saying, "If you don't get backed off occasionally, you're probably not playing a winning game."

[Golfer74]

When you get backed off, is there a reasonable amount of time you would wait before going back, or would you stay away indefinitely?

[Parker]

> When you get backed off, is there a
> reasonable amount of time you would wait
> before going back, or would you stay away
> indefinitely?

Like so many things, the answer is: it depends.

It depends on how well you were established at the casino prior to the backoff, the size of the casino, how well your action blends in with typical action at that casino, how distinctive your appearance is, etc.

If you weren't well established or particularily memorable, and the back-off was the usual quick & polite variety, you may be able to return in six months or so on a different shift.

[suicyco maniac]

the ruder the pit is in backing me off the more determined I am to get back in there and play again...When they are nice about it I tend to give them more slack before heading back in. SM

> When you get backed off, is there a
> reasonable amount of time you would wait
> before going back, or would you stay away
> indefinitely?

[stainless steel rat]

I read this to mean "play max EV all the time, don't worry about heat/back-off/barring"???

Good summary? I have done that in places I know I won't see again soon. On my favorite places on the MS coast I'd be more hesitant to go wild since there are not that many good games down there...

[Myooligan]

So I've been following this thread and, as a newb, it's been very informative for me. Thanks everyone.

Here's my question: Although I'll be starting as a red chipper, I want to preserve the option to play high stakes down the road. My thought was that I should use extra cover now to make sure I'm off the radar, should I ever start playing more seriously.

However, from what you guys are saying it sounds like I've been reading too much Bringing Down The House. In other words, even if you're a top notch counter, so long as you're playing red, you're not going to get your face in the Griffin book, or your name in a database of APers, etc. And getting backed off at this level just means getting suspended from the casino for a few months or a year. Right?

[ET Fan]

> I read this to mean "play max EV all
> the time, don't worry about
> heat/back-off/barring"???

... then I'd say this is a good summary of what every nickel AP I've met in the MidWest does. Now I realize, some people on the boards disguise their identity / threat quotient by understating their bet levels.

OTOH, the situation in Las Vegas is very different from the situation in the MidWest. There are a lot more casinos much closer together. They are much more paranoid in Las Vegas. You don't lose as much EV by moving around constantly. Ouchez plays primarily in the MidWest.

But make no mistake. Many people do play with humungous spreads and little cover. Very few APs share Don's objective of being welcome to play again at every casino. In fact, some positively correlate their success with number of backoffs.

If you share Don's goals that's great, but understand he's never soiled his hands with a red chip. ;-)

ETF

[KidDangerous]

> If you share Don's goals that's great, but
> understand he's never soiled his hands with
> a red chip. ;-)

Ever? Not even starting out?

Kid

[stainless steel rat]

> ... then I'd say this is a good summary of
> what every nickel AP I've met in the MidWest
> does. Now I realize, some people on the
> boards disguise their identity / threat
> quotient by understating their bet levels.

> OTOH, the situation in Las Vegas is very
> different from the situation in the MidWest.
> There are a lot more casinos much closer
> together. They are much more paranoid in Las
> Vegas. You don't lose as much EV by moving
> around constantly. Ouchez plays primarily in
> the MidWest.

> But make no mistake. Many people do play
> with humungous spreads and little cover.
> Very few APs share Don's objective of being
> welcome to play again at every casino. In
> fact, some positively correlate their
> success with number of backoffs.

I play primarily in MS because of proximity, but do get to vegas once/twice a year on average. I've also hit midwest locations on various rare occasions when a business trip takes me close by one, and there I really don't care much about cover since it is doubtful I will ever play in the same place twice within a year or two. But closer to home, there are "wads" of casinos within close walking distance at various places (nothing like vegas of course, but there are spots with 3-4 casinos as densely packed as in vegas) and I've always been interested in not going "too far" and not being able to play at the places easiest for me to actually reach on a reasonable driving distance trip.

I generally would be called a "red chipper" although I do play green on occasion on a good DD game. More commonly I play $10 tables which keeps my max bet reasonable with a decent spread. If I still find this interesting after I retire in another 10-15 years, and if I am still able to play, I might well graduate to a solid green/black chipper, or I might even do it sooner since I'm at the stage where I don't owe anything, kids are grown, etc.

My concern has been that playing mainly DD as I have been, with a little 6D thrown in here and there, I have been winning pretty consistently. Maybe only 1/4-1/3 of my playing sessions have been negative. I try to keep it under 1 hour per specific pit/table at a time as much as possible to avoid becoming recognized as a regular player that wins a lot.

I probably should re-think this a bit, but my concern has always been "once barred, always barred," as getting arrested for trespassing is not worth the risk vs gain.

Perhaps too conservative...

> If you share Don's goals that's great, but
> understand he's never soiled his hands with
> a red chip. ;-)

> ETF

[Parker]

> So I've been following this thread and, as a
> newb, it's been very informative for me.
> Thanks everyone.

> Here's my question: Although I'll be
> starting as a red chipper, I want to
> preserve the option to play high stakes down
> the road. My thought was that I should use
> extra cover now to make sure I'm off the
> radar, should I ever start playing more
> seriously.

> However, from what you guys are saying it
> sounds like I've been reading too much
> Bringing Down The House. In other words,
> even if you're a top notch counter, so long
> as you're playing red, you're not going to
> get your face in the Griffin book, or your
> name in a database of APers, etc. And
> getting backed off at this level just means
> getting suspended from the casino for a few
> months or a year. Right?

Right. While some places may back off red chippers, you're not likely to end up in Griffin, or on a flyer. Even if you do, it's no big deal.

For most pros, back-offs are just part of the job. It is not a question of if they will backed off, but rather how long they can play before the inevitable happens.

[Victoria]

Ouchez says a BJ warrior always attacks and stainless steel says that in different houses he takes different approaches.

In thinking about Ouchez's warrior example, he needs to think about real warriors who win and survive. They take more of the Kenney Rogers, knowing when to hold and fold approach. When to attack and when to retreat and the Victoria approach of knowing your opponent and knowing what you want out of that casino.

The place is close to your home and everywhere else is far. The game is good enough and they are counter tolerant (or if they have not figured it out by now, they never will except by looking at lifetime win), you want to return there perhaps 40-50 times per year.

The place is Vegas and you go 3 times a year, stay in different places and play all over town, hitting about 15 or so different casinos or shifts every visit.

In the home area, I am closer to Stainless, in Vegas, I am like Ouchez. I give up EV, not much, but it is worth driving 45 minutes to play when the alternative is 4 hours.

I think the experienced players all know this but I wrote this to give some of you newer players a thought/goal process to go through when comparing your local visits to a Vegas trip for instance.

Victoria

> I read this to mean "play max EV all
> the time, don't worry about
> heat/back-off/barring"???

> Good summary? I have done that in places I
> know I won't see again soon. On my favorite
> places on the MS coast I'd be more hesitant
> to go wild since there are not that many
> good games down there...