Electric Kid: Cellini R.I.P.

[Electric Kid]

Just checking to see what was posted here, but don't see anything. Here's link.

Cellini R.I.P.

[Ouchez]

> Just checking to see what was posted here,
> but don't see anything. Here's link.

well, I have had my debates with the guy and I am of the opinion that this all just doesn't add up.

I do not wish him ill will but I have a feeling he will turn up again, maybe cruising down the Rainbow Highway in a Mazda Miata, (red?), with S.W.K, Toddler, and "Molly Brown", all squeezed in together, real tight. What a group...eh!

I just don't buy this whole scenario....is this April 1st??

Somebody pinch me,
Ouchez.

[Sun Runner]

> well, I have had my debates with the guy and
> I am of the opinion that this all just
> doesn't add up.

Perhaps not. If not, there are some pretty heavy and disparate hitters participating in the ruse.

I chose to think it is most likely true and therefore say to his family and those that knew him best .. God bless you and I pray his memory stays with you forever.

(If DVC was as Max Rubin opines, DVC seems like a guy I would liked to have known.)

[pm]

Is his book worth buying? Is the material dated?

[bfbagain]

This is a great question, and one that shouldn't be cavalierly answered, so I'll give it the respect that it deserves.

Much as been made about what books should be bought, when, and by whom. And this is what makes this question tricky.

There are certain books that should be in the possession of all players, regardless of committment to the game. This is NOT one of them.

The first book, should be the first purchased, that's it, as that's the one that introduces the game, it's strengths and weaknesses, it's allure, and hopefully, a system to be followed that will allow a basic advantage, if played correctly, over the casino.

Now we know that many don't happen upon a good first book. They may, through bad luck, buy a John Patrick, or Jerry Patterson book. It happens. However, through time and interest, hopefully they will have stumbled upon a book written by a knowledgable player/author, such as Stanford Wong, Don Schlesinger, Arnold Snyder, and a host of others. These will have likely introduced that person to the Hi-Lo system, Zen count, Hi-Opt I, K-O Blackjack, etc., and this will become the basic foundation of their blackjack knowledge.

From there, depending upon their interest and comittment to learning the game, and increasing their advantage, Professional Blackjack, Blackbelt in Blackjack, BlackJack Attack, whether the first, second, and/or now, the third editions, or all of them, should be required, if being a serious student of the game is the goal.

All in all, most other books are more for refining the game, and providing additional reading to confirm, if necessary, that blackjack is indeed, beatable.

There are certainly other books, for what I will call serious to professional level players, that should be both read, and studied. A few of these would be The Theory of Blackjack, by the late Peter Griffin. Beat the Dealer by Edward Thorpe. The Theory of Gambling and Statistical Logic by Richard Epstein.

For some additional knowledge, especially for understanding SD play, I highly recommend Million Dollar Blackjack by the late Ken Uston. And most any other books by Kenny. Also, for team play, these are must reads, as well as some others.

For understanding some of the art and science of high level play, and the goal of longevity, Burning the Tables in Las Vegas by Ian Anderson is worthwhile.

For understanding the basics of casino comps, Comp City by Max Rubin is necessary.

And then we get to the esoteric, but highly sought out and needed information for really serious players. This is where Cellini's book might fall.

Anything written by Steve Forte, Card Counting For The Casino Executive by Bill Zender, and of course, Beyond Counting by James Grosjean.

Included in the prior paragragh should be The Card Counters Guide to Casino Surveillance.

In order of purchases, and blackjack skills and level of play, this is probably where Cellini's book should fall.

You could probably buy Zenders, and Forte's work after Cellini, and unfortunately, you may not have the choice to buy Beyond Counting before Cellini's, so of the four, Cellini's is probably the next one I would recommend, providing you already had most of the prior listed books.

I hope this helps. There are obviously others, but this might serve as a good road map to acquiring a solid foundation of blackjack knowledge.

I should have inserted, somewhere, where, it depends, the required software that is as important, as many of the books listed. And last, and not least, IMHO, you can't even think about, much less consider yourself to be, a serious player, and not subscribe to the two most influential blackjack websites on the planet. But as I said, that's just my opinion. I'm in it for the knowledge, and hopefully I can share mine, and not for the cultism that specialized endeavors as ours often bring.

I also have not referenced literature on shuffle tracking, and other forms of advantage play, (with the obvious exception of BC) as the original question was related to Cellini. Obviously, those types of books are truly for the few and far between.

And FWIW, this book will be timely and insightful, for quite some time, IMO. Remember, the bigger the ship, the longer and harder it is to turn around. Casinos are pretty big ships, and they're getting bigger all the time. So yes, it is still highly valuable. But not for most.

Maybe somebody else in the surveillance world will pick up where Cellini left off. After all, he did say he had his own surveillance mafia.

cheers
bfb

[pm]

I'm pretty much right at the point you mentioned, i.e. I've read most all of the books you list up till Comp City (although I haven't actually read "The Theory of Blackjack"; I took one look at it and I said "No." I'm good at math, I went up to calc III in college, but that book blew me away). So I guess I can move on to the next group of books you mentioned.

I've also heard shuffle tracking techniques, keycard sequencing techniques, cut card techniques etc. referred to as "card-counting parlor tricks", i.e. you can't squeeze out enough extra money to justify the effort of using these techniques, especially since automatic shufflers are so prevalent. Is that at all accurate?

As my own 2 cents, I would consider Casino Verite a must for beginners learning basic strategy and card counting; BJRM should be purchased once you have a full understanding of RoR, and it sounds like CVData is the program to use once you want to determine an RoR/bet schedule that incorporates cover plays and betting camouflage.

[bfbagain]

I've also heard shuffle tracking techniques, keycard sequencing techniques, cut card techniques etc. referred to as "card-counting parlor tricks",
i.e. you can't squeeze out enough extra money to justify the effort of using these techniques, specially since automatic shufflers are so prevalent. Is that at all accurate?

Well, clearly the use of automatic shufflers makes many of those techniques moot.....However, there are still many, many, did I say many?, stores that hand shuffle, so to those who say those techniques aren't worth it....good! That's not my opinion, but if they want to believe that, that's an area of knowledge that isn't as forthcoming by serious players to the general bj public.

Take from that what you will.

I agree with the CV recommendation. Beginning players should contact Norm immediately, that is, yesterday.... and buy Casino Verite Blackjack!

Anyone who is playing green or above, should own the entire suite...period. And I would add that all blackchip or higher players should have BJRM2002 and SBA, although in fairness, there is a redundancy that could be lived without. For me, I own them all, and am thankful I do, as there are specific uses for them both. None of which I'll discuss. However, the random walk in BJRM2002 is phenomonal.

cheers
bfb

[Parker]

> Is his book worth buying? Is the material
> dated?

You can find my detailed review of the book in The Blackjack Library at left. For your convenience I have provided a direct link below.

Bfbagain's comments are dead on. This is not a book for the beginner or casual recreational player.

Cellini book review

[Norm Wattenberger]

I would add that a Cellini contribution was the list of LV conferences/events. LV is the center of large conferences because it beats the Hell out of everywhere else on hotels rooms and conference space even including my little island of Manhatten. His BJF report gave you an idea on whether to where a ten-gallon hat or a pocket-protector (Not that this is foolproof.)

[Bettie]

You can still get the list of conventions every week in the Sunday edition of the LVRJ, or from a multitude of websites, including the Las Vegas Convention and Visitors Authority site. I check the newspaper all the time to plan my gaming sessions.

Bettie

[Parker]

> You can still get the list of conventions
> every week in the Sunday edition of the
> LVRJ , or from a multitude of websites,
> including the Las Vegas Convention and
> Visitors Authority site. I check the
> newspaper all the time to plan my gaming
> sessions.

Travelaxe lists large conventions and other major events, right on the screen where you indicate your planned travel dates. A2ZLasVegas.com is another good source for just about any sort of info on Las Vegas.

[bfbagain]

His BJF report gave you an idea on whether to where a ten-gallon hat or a pocket-protector (Not that this is foolproof.)

You really have to read this guys comments over and over. I am under the impression that there was a lot more to this guy than we may ever know. I sure hope we'll learn some more.

Although it was only in one issue of BJF, his review of the Vegas casinos and their surveillance departments was insightful, to say the least. It's a shame that he never completed the next issue, i.e., the AC surveillance crew reviews.

I have two copies of that issue, and I'll be damned that I can't find either one at the moment, especialy since I keep one with me on all my Vegas trips, even though it's a little outdated (maybe), but probably not by much. Senior moments....

Now this is one copy of BJF that almost everyone should have if they travel to Vegas.

Maybe Viktor has some extras lying around. If so Viktor, as it seems that I have somehow misplaced not one, but two, if you could set one aside for me I'll pick it up shortly. Thanks.

And thanks again Norm.

cheers
bfb

[sam]

SR,

Your postings have always seemed to the point and solid. No brag, no boast, no bluster. I know nothing about Cellini but I take your response as the humane view a sensible person should and would take. That view probably doesn't help the cards but it certainly doesn't hurt to store up some good feeling and respect for others. My best to you.

Sam

> Perhaps not. If not, there are some pretty
> heavy and disparate hitters participating in
> the ruse.

> I chose to think it is most likely true and
> therefore say to his family and those that
> knew him best .. God bless you and I pray
> his memory stays with you forever.

> (If DVC was as Max Rubin opines, DVC seems
> like a guy I would liked to have known.)