bjplayervegas: got barred..?

[bjplayervegas]

so i'm playing off and on for about 12 hours at the dump in vegas i alwyas go to about once a week when i go to vegas. this morning around 10:30, while experiencing a net profit of about $75 from this whole 12 hour play trip, the fat floor guy who knows me and rates me (for what I don't know..a $5 meal comp) comes to my table while starting a new one on one with a new dealer, and says i can only flat bet from now on. now he clarifies that my pic will be posted and when ever i play there (this after about 3 months of playing there) i can only flat bet...the new casino manager and the eye in the sky said so. Now i'm thinking, i play $1 to $5 reds, and when i get risky, i go to the EXTREME and play the $5 table. i spread no more than 1 to 5 no matter what, and i don't understand what the heck they're worried about me for...just cause i had $300 in red on the table at the time, after buying in for $280 2 hours prior. what is up with this? is this being barred? if so, for what? i'm not a green check player or black, and if not, then who would say, okay, i'll drive 5 hours to come here so i can flat bet $5 or $1 or whatever? what happened, and how is one supposed to feel about this? here i thought i should have left 30 min prior, but would that have made a difference? i'm not sure what the casino is scarred of? am i such a threat cause i vary my bet from $5 to $25 and in between and in the end make really not much at all to take home? this sucks. any response?

[Don Schlesinger]

This is where I go against the trend of what most people will tell you -- namely that, if you play red, no one cares what you do, so camouflage isn't important.

You have learned that the above simply isn't true. Bottom line: If you give a casino 12 hours to determine that you're counting, and they come to that conclusion, they will throw you out -- plain and simple.

I know of no casino on earth that, once they spot a counter, will continue to let him/her play for any appreciable amount of time, no matter what stakes he/she is playing for. What's in it for the casino?

You were wrong to think they wouldn't care. Just look at El Cortez, the biggest cesspool, sewage dump on the face of the earth. They'll throw you out for spreading from $1 to $2, a**holes that they are.

Don

[Brick Waller]

This sweaty(dumpy)casino must be going broke anyhow,probably due to incompetance. I'm sure they've also barred winning ploppies before. Most your action was only a measely $1 to $5 bets and you seldom played the nickel tables!!?? I'm trying to hold back the laughter. Playing against the shoe would even make this story not only funny, but down right ridiculous. Are you sure they dont suspect you of trying other devious acts or activities?

Brick

[ET Fan]

What have you lost? The privilege of winning $2 to $10 an hour in a dump, that's what! There are plenty of other fish to fry in Vegas.

If you can't spread at will in a dollar game, it's not worth playing.

ETF

> so i'm playing off and on for about 12 hours
> at the dump in vegas i alwyas go to about
> once a week when i go to vegas. this morning
> around 10:30, while experiencing a net
> profit of about $75 from this whole 12 hour
> play trip, the fat floor guy who knows me
> and rates me (for what I don't know..a $5
> meal comp) comes to my table while starting
> a new one on one with a new dealer, and says
> i can only flat bet from now on. now he
> clarifies that my pic will be posted and
> when ever i play there (this after about 3
> months of playing there) i can only flat
> bet...the new casino manager and the eye in
> the sky said so. Now i'm thinking, i play $1
> to $5 reds, and when i get risky, i go to
> the EXTREME and play the $5 table. i spread
> no more than 1 to 5 no matter what, and i
> don't understand what the heck they're
> worried about me for...just cause i had $300
> in red on the table at the time, after
> buying in for $280 2 hours prior. what is up
> with this? is this being barred? if so, for
> what? i'm not a green check player or black,
> and if not, then who would say, okay, i'll
> drive 5 hours to come here so i can flat bet
> $5 or $1 or whatever? what happened, and how
> is one supposed to feel about this? here i
> thought i should have left 30 min prior, but
> would that have made a difference? i'm not
> sure what the casino is scarred of? am i
> such a threat cause i vary my bet from $5 to
> $25 and in between and in the end make
> really not much at all to take home? this
> sucks. any response?

[bjplayervegas]

THIS WAS THE WESTERN. WHERE THE DEALERS (MOST OF THEM) OTHER THAN NOT SPEAKING ENGLISH, CAN NOT EVEN ADD UP THE VALUES OF THE CARDS ON THE TABLE!

> This sweaty(dumpy)casino must be going broke
> anyhow,probably due to incompetance. I'm
> sure they've also barred winning ploppies
> before. Most your action was only a measely
> $1 to $5 bets and you seldom played the
> nickel tables!!?? I'm trying to hold back
> the laughter. Playing against the shoe would
> even make this story not only funny, but
> down right ridiculous. Are you sure they
> dont suspect you of trying other devious
> acts or activities?

> Brick

[Sonny]

This was just a simple backing-off, not a barring. This is just a hazard of the game. Don't feel bad. The best thing to do is to analyze your play and find out how and why they got you.

> so i'm playing off and on for about 12 hours
> at the dump

Twelve hours is a long time. It is more than enough time for them to catch on to you, and they obviously could tell that you weren't going to leave on your own. I have played there for years and most of the dealers know that I am a counter (but not most of the pit). The reason they let me play is because I don't try to milk them for too much. I might play a session each day, but never more than an hour or so. I'm sure the fact that I only make a few trips every year helps.

> the fat floor guy who knows me and rates me
> (for what I don't know..a $5 meal comp) comes
> to my table while starting a new one on one
> with a new dealer, and says i can only flat
> bet from now on.

You mean the older guy who wears the suit, right? Yeah, he's really on the ball. You've got to be pretty careful when he's around. I try not to play during his shift, or at least keep him occupied while he's there. In a sweaty joint like that you have to be very careful. They used to have a very observant Asian pit bossette there, but I haven't seen her in quite a while. She started to give me some heat, but I backed off before she had to take any action.

> i spread no more than 1 to 5 no matter what,
> and i don't understand what the heck they're
> worried about me for...

I agree with Don here. If they know you are counting they will not let you play. Why would they? Especially in such a cheap place as the Western. All of those $2 players are barely paying the rest for those seats. They need every penny they can get! That is why the cage calls in EVERY transaction over $24. Any counter who plays for too long is a threat to them.

>...just cause i had $300 in red on the table at
> the time, after buying in for $280 2 hours
> prior.

That's A LOT of money to buy in for if you're playing silver. Hopefully it was because you were buying in for smaller amounts and kept losing. There really isn't any reason to buy in for more than $50 at a time if you're playing silver. Even $50 is pretty big for the Western. Most of their players buy in for $5-$20. I don't even buy in for $100 when I'm plying reds.

Also, having that much money on the table will make the pit nervous, so it's best to stash a few greens at the table or when you go to the bathroom. Coming back from the bathroom also gives you a great chance to Wong into a single-deck game.

The bottom line is, you have to be careful in sawdust joints like that. You have to be aware of when you are getting heat and know what you can get away with. It seems strange that they would bar you out of the blue. Usually they will let you feel the heat so that you leave on your own.

You might want to go back on another shift just to see if they really did post your picture. Since they didn't bar you there is no reason not to return again. Maybe you could return several months later (a year would be safer) and try it again. Don't look at this as a mistake, just as a learning experience.

-Sonny-

[methodman]

Of course there is heat often with no spread,
got tossed for $3 to 10 a while back..
Allowing counting, I have seen casinos allow counting and at times encourage counting.
It wasn't that long ago where casinos were advertising 80% penetration. In place in Vegas
the pit came up and said your a decent counter why are you spreading so low,lets see how much you can win. Sure this was two years ago,but a few allow this as every casino is different. Many astute casinos realize most counters lose due to limited bankroll, bad discipline, and too low or too high spreads. Recently at Pala casino in S. diego, the pit was counting along with me at the dbl deck and telling me to go for it.

> This is where I go against the trend of what
> most people will tell you -- namely that, if
> you play red, no one cares what you do, so
> camouflage isn't important.

> You have learned that the above simply isn't
> true. Bottom line: If you give a casino 12
> hours to determine that you're counting, and
> they come to that conclusion, they will
> throw you out -- plain and simple.

> I know of no casino on earth that, once they
> spot a counter, will continue to let him/her
> play for any appreciable amount of time, no
> matter what stakes he/she is playing for.
> What's in it for the casino?

> You were wrong to think they wouldn't care.
> Just look at El Cortez, the biggest
> cesspool, sewage dump on the face of the
> earth. They'll throw you out for spreading
> from $1 to $2, a**holes that they are.

> Don

[Parker]

Bill Zender pioneered this attitude many years ago in Las Vegas when he was the casino manager at the old Aladdin. He offered good games with deep penetration (thereby increasing hands/hour). Low to mid-level (green/low black) counters were tolerated, providing that they behaved themselves and didn't spread too brazenly. He understood that these players were no threat to the casino's bottom line, and that most of them weren't even playing a winning game.

Counters can be an asset to a casino. Unlike "normal" players, counters love a heads-up game, and are quick to move to an empty table when the table they are playing at starts getting crowded. Furthermore, busy casinos are always more appealing than empty casinos, regardless of who is at the tables.

The pre-Harrah's Horseshoe also had this attitude. A pit critter there once told me, "We don't mind a little 'grazing,' as long as you don't try to take the whole pasture." Alas, no more.

There are still a handful of casinos, in Las Vegas and elsewhere, that have this enlightened attitude. The key is to behave in a manner that makes you a desirable person to have at the table.

If you are polite and friendly to everyone, dealers, pit critters, and especially other (non counter) players who are betting big, toke the dealer occasionally, and don't brazenly spread in lockstep with the count, a few places will still give you a pass.

Sadly, this attitude has largely been replaced by the bean-counter philosophy: Counters may hurt the bottom line (regardless of how insignificantly) so throw 'em all out.

[Ouchez]

[Syph]

100% agreement, Don.

Those who claim casinos don`t care about nickel players simply haven`t tried playing 50+ hours a week, red chipping it.

The backoffs come quite regularly.

60+ in my year as a cardcounter.

(And the tresspass act was read a couple times, as well)

Best,
Syph

[Sun Runner]

I have stuck up for the casinos and their bean counters often here as ultimately, even for the Bill Zenders of the world, it comes down to maximizing casino profits

You make the excellent point that the bean counters might not know .. beans ..about what it takes to truly maximize the profits.

An excellent perspective.

[Brick Waller]

Most experienced casinos know that a small time card counter wont hurt them. I've even seen pit bosses laughing and enjoying their company before,especially when they bring the wife,kids,etc. along to play slots.

So a guy trying to count cards may be good enough to break even or grind out 3 dollars an hour,BIG DEAL,in the meantime wife and ploppy friends lose and spend all their money. The end result is Daddy may win the battle,but the casinos win the WAR.

Of course there are also the sweaty casinos that even sweat ploppies for winning. I've seen (ignorant)pits that actually make ploppies feel uncomfortable or "guilty" for winning.These stupid casinos wont even let the ploppies enjoy themselves and they often create a tense atmosphere.You know what I'm talking about.

Brick