SOTSOG: Long Off-Topic On-line Poker Advantage Play

[SOTSOG]

Wednesday Nights.

Wednesday night at PartyPoker.Com, the average number of people logged on and playing jumps by 10,000.

That is 1000 additional full 10 seat tables. That happens to correspond to the airing of "World Poker Tour" on the Travel Channel. That is 10,000 people watching World Poker Tour on TV, and playing on-line without a clue.

I average about 1.5 big bets per hour additional profit on Wednesday nights. Just thought I would pass it on, in case any one is looking for extremely soft easy games to learn to play hold em. Low Limit Party Poker is as fishy as it gets, especially Wednesday night.

The WSOP is being played right now, I can only imagine what it will be like when that starts hitting ESPN.

>>>
>>> SOME Adjustments for the fishy game:
>>>>
Forget about bluffing. Forgetaboutit. Don't even try. However, You can steal blinds on the very rare occasions it is folded around to you, so don't be afraid to raise on marginal hands in late position when it is you and the blinds, then bet on a scary flop. AND if you have a drawing hand, a check raise on the flop will usually get you a free card.

When a Ace or King hits the board on the flop, and you have second or even third pair, Bet or better yet Raise. You might take the pot right there, or you will find out if any one really did pair the Ace cheaply, rather than getting check/called to the river and find out about it there.

Extra, Extra, Extra tight on non-suited starting hands. QTo? KJo? fold em and forget about em. Now QTs, KJs -- yeah, baby. With 8-9 seeing the flop, chase the flushes along with the rest of em. When they proudly show the 83s for the flush, you can take the pot with your high card Ks. Loosen up with A-rag suited for the same reason. There are often enough calling stations to make it worthwhile to chase.

Play any pocket pair. Again, with the number of callers you get paid off when 11% of the time you flop trips.

Learn to quickly spot who you can ignore pre-flop raises from. I had a guy last night raise from early position pre-flop with what turned out to be K8o. Don't be afraid to re-raise it back, if you have a good hand the more money in the pot the better, half the table is going to call along.

Watch out for the single bet every street tables: You can't make money. Here is the betting pattern -
cards are flopped -- check, check, check, check, check, check, check, you bet from the button with your flopped top pair -- call, call, call, call, call, call, call -- turn card comes a blank -- check, check, check, check, check, check, check -- you bet what is still top pair -- call, call, call, call, call, call, call -- river card comes -- check, check, check, check, check, check, check -- you bet again, why not? -- fold, fold, fold, CALL, fold, fold fold -- guess what? That single caller had a pocket pair and hit trips on the river. The good news: They never raise, sometimes even after flopping the absolute nuts, so they can't hurt you that bad. The bad news: Since it is always checked to you, you can't raise and get any money in the pot. Even with killer hands, you only win the minimum pot each time, and you got 7-8 players potentially sucking out on you every time. Bottom line: You lose, the fish lose, the house eventually gets all the money in rake.

Find the loose raisey-daisy tables, with callers, and bet up to the river folders, any-two-will-doers, and various other species of donating fish.

Don't call a fish's river raise! Unless you have the NUTS -- sometimes the fish don't realize what the nuts is. That Ace High flush will sometimes raise you when you have the full house -- but then instead of calling, you should be raising back! So I guess I was right the first time, Never call a fish river raise. If you got top pair and have been betting it, or two pair and been betting and raising -- and you get raised on the river -- the fish has sucked out on some amazing hand and has trips, or the straight, or the flush, or .... you get the picture ... save yourself a bet and fold it. But if the idiot thinks his low end straight is good when you have the two high card straight -- or you have put him on a hand and KNOW you have him beat -- RAISE HIM BACK don't just call like a fish. CAP IT with the nuts.

Re-raise river raises or fold, don't call.

[David Matthews]

This is the most solid online poker playing advice I have seen anywhere. I don't agree with all of it. For example, I think folding small pocket pairs pre-flop is frequently better than playing them.

This strategy is very true, however, and I'm sure it would get the money.

Did you write that SOTSOG? (I kind of hate seeing it in print anywhere)

[SOTSOG]

This was just some random strategy observations I have made while I continue my slow ascent up the poker learning curve.

Very similar to the time, effort, and practice it takes to become top-notch BJ advantage player.

Pocket pairs -- if 6 or more are limping in pre-flop, don't fold any pair, it is worth a bet (or even 2 if raised) to see if you make trips. Of course, pocket 3s or 4s etc. get folded immediately if they don't hit.

[John Auston]

[SOTSOG]

I started at .50/$1.00 until I could consistently beat the game, and then moved to $1/$2, and am now playing $2/$4 and will bump up to $3/$6 when I am confident that my winning at $2/$4 is real and not just positive variance. Live I play $4/$8 or $5/$10 games, but that is a different story.

I think my 'fish' advice is good for typical .50/$1.00 game at Party. $1/$2 is a tighter game, $2/$4 has maniacs and occasionally some sharp trick players.

[Mountebank]

Very nice generalized advice. You are a respected poster around here, so please take any criticism with a grain of salt. I think some of the guidelines you give will cause low-limit players to lose, rather than win, money. Here we go:

I want to say that I am no poker expert. I have read and re-read the good poker literature - TOP, HEFAP, WLLH, Pot Limit and No Limit Hold-em, and of course, the twoplustwo website. Most of the information I give is a regurgitation of what I have learned on twoplustwo. So, none of these ideas are mine, to make that clear. They can all be found on various threads at twoplustwo. More on that later.

I think the most important issue you forget to bring up is this: when betting or raising, or even calling down, you must be thinking about the size of the pot at all times. If you are not, you are not playing winning poker. Some of your observations seem to ignore this critical issue. I'll tie this in momentarily, but on to a couple of your points:

> When a Ace or King hits the board on the
> flop, and you have second or even third
> pair, Bet or better yet Raise. You might
> take the pot right there, or you will find
> out if any one really did pair the Ace
> cheaply, rather than getting check/called to
> the river and find out about it there.

This is a fact-dependent situation (but aren't all poker situations?). I can count on one-hand the number of times, in low-limit games, I have stuck with 2nd or 3rd pair all the way to a showdown. The problem with this advice is these loosy-goosies will play ANY Ace - A, 4 offsuit from EP, etc... When an ace flops, and 5-7 folks have seen the flop, you better believe someone has an Ace. Now, a checkraise may help limit the field, but if the fish are cold-calling my checkraises, I am dumping my 2nd & 3rd pair everytime. EX:

You are in MP and limp with JT suited, with 7 folks seeing flop. Flop comes A, J, 4 rainbow. Checked to you on flop. Are you really going to bet this flop? In this situation, a check fold is in the cards for me. Remember, the pot is small. 99% of time betting here will only get you called by someone holding A, rag. Also, if there was a bet to you, a check-raise could be in order, but again, anyone playing an Ace is going to call you down. The fish will not fold (hell, you could be bluffing!).

The problem here is that these fish have some hard-wiring somewhere in their brains that calling is good. Call one bet - good. Call two bets - good! Raising and three-betting is for some reason out of their comprehension pattern. (NOTE: if you are three bet by a fish, you probably are in trouble). I think better advice is steer clear of 2nd and 3rd pair w/o a good kicker if you have multiple players post-flop.

> Extra, Extra, Extra tight on non-suited
> starting hands. QTo? KJo? fold em and forget
> about em. Now QTs, KJs -- yeah, baby. With
> 8-9 seeing the flop, chase the flushes along
> with the rest of em. When they proudly show
> the 83s for the flush, you can take the pot
> with your high card Ks. Loosen up with A-rag
> suited for the same reason. There are often
> enough calling stations to make it
> worthwhile to chase.

Ax suited is highly over-rated in low-limit games. I still play them, but disagree with many low-limit players that they are playable from anywhere. Generally, A3-A7 suited, I do not play from EP. I'd rather play QJs or JTs from EP in the loosest of games. The problem again comes when you flop an ace. Some yo-yo probably has you outkicked, and you simply dump money in the pot (unless you can get away from hand on flop).

> Play any pocket pair. Again, with the number
> of callers you get paid off when 11% of the
> time you flop trips.

Agree, agree, agree. Here is a rule of thumb. If you cannot play 3,3 UTG in a low-limit game (i.e you are getting raised and re-raised), you need to move to a different game.

> Watch out for the single bet every street
> tables: You can't make money. Here is the
> betting pattern -
> cards are flopped -- check, check, check,
> check, check, check, check, you bet from the
> button with your flopped top pair -- call,
> call, call, call, call, call, call -- turn
> card comes a blank -- check, check, check,
> check, check, check, check -- you bet what
> is still top pair -- call, call, call, call,
> call, call, call -- river card comes --
> check, check, check, check, check, check,
> check -- you bet again, why not? -- fold,
> fold, fold, CALL, fold, fold fold -- guess
> what? That single caller had a pocket pair
> and hit trips on the river. The good news:
> They never raise, sometimes even after
> flopping the absolute nuts, so they can't
> hurt you that bad. The bad news: Since it is
> always checked to you, you can't raise and
> get any money in the pot. Even with killer
> hands, you only win the minimum pot each
> time, and you got 7-8 players potentially
> sucking out on you every time. Bottom line:
> You lose, the fish lose, the house
> eventually gets all the money in rake.

I don't understand this, and strongly disagree that you cannot make money. Isn't this what you want? A table full of calling stations? I LOVE playing at tables like this. Yes, it is incredibly frustrating when you are betting your top pair (Kings) KQ suited the whole way on a K, J, 8, 6, 2 board (no flush possile) and some idiot turns over an AK suited that was never raised on any street. But, you will make money from these folks in the long run. Also, in your example above, with the amount of betting and calling, even without any raises, this is far from a "minimum" pot.

> Find the loose raisey-daisy tables, with
> callers, and bet up to the river folders,
> any-two-will-doers, and various other
> species of donating fish.

> Don't call a fish's river raise! Unless you
> have the NUTS -- sometimes the fish don't
> realize what the nuts is. That Ace High
> flush will sometimes raise you when you have
> the full house -- but then instead of
> calling, you should be raising back! So I
> guess I was right the first time, Never call
> a fish river raise. If you got top pair and
> have been betting it, or two pair and been
> betting and raising -- and you get raised on
> the river -- the fish has sucked out on some
> amazing hand and has trips, or the straight,
> or the flush, or .... you get the picture
> ... save yourself a bet and fold it. But if
> the idiot thinks his low end straight is
> good when you have the two high card
> straight -- or you have put him on a hand
> and KNOW you have him beat -- RAISE HIM BACK
> don't just call like a fish. CAP IT with the
> nuts.

> Re-raise river raises or fold, don't call.

This advice will cause people to lose money, rather than win it. As harsh as this sounds - it is wrong, and commonly referred to as "weak-tight". I agree to be aggressive. If you are not three-betting your made full house, just give up the game now. BUT, your example here is ignoring the size of the pot. It is a GIGANTIC mistake, when the pot is big, to fold your top pair, or top two pair, to single bet. Just don't do it! Small pots are where you save bets. Big pots are NOT for saving bets - you need to be thinking "what is the best way I can win this thing?" Calling down on the end w/top pair, or top two pair - especially when you have been betting hard the whole way - does not make you a calling station. Fish LOVE to bluff. Catching just one bluff a night in a big pot more than outweighs the two or three bets you might lose by calling down, or even re-raising.

Folding to fish raises on the river when you do not hold the nuts is just bad advice. Better advice is when you hold a good, but not great hand, throw your chips at your opponent like there is no tommorrow. Make them fear YOU.

Get over MUBS. (Monsters Under the Bed Syndrome). You need, as soon as possible to train yourself to play not as if your opponents have the nuts all the time, but rather that they do not. Once you get over that hurdle (and I agree, it is very hard), you are well on your way to winning poker.

Everyone who wants to learn about winning low-limit poker needs to go to www.twoplustwo.com. Do a search in the General forum for "My favorite threads". Within that thread is gold mine of information.

Additionally, you need to read every single post possible by the poster majorkong, Ed Miller (majorkong) and Ed Miller (he has posted under all three screen names). Dynasty and Clarkmeister are also wonderful posters for low-limit players. Respect their opinions. Ed Miller's posts alone have made me into a better player - and where all the infomation above comes from. Ed Miller needs to take all the credit for this.

I would enjoy more debate on these subjects, if Parker will let it happen. This is a blackjack board, in case anyone forgot :-).

[SOTSOG]

The correct answer is "it depends". I think we agree, if we were talking about the same thing. My advice is adjustments for the typical idiot Party Poker low limit game, I think your objections are to games with players with half a brain.

Ace - Rag suited:

Actually my advice does take pot size into account. I didn't specify it, it is assumed. There are 6 players seeing the flop, 4 seeing the turn, and 3 showing down to the river every time. It doesn't matter what position I am in, or what cards the other players get -- that is going to be the numbers more often than not -- Sometimes 7 see the flop, and sometimes only 3 see the turn -- but you get the drift. I don't need to wait and see what the pot size is going to be, I already know from the past 10000 hands what it is. If you aren't seeing these numbers at the flop and turn, you are at the wrong table, go find the fish table where my advice applies.

You are right -- if you catch the single Pair of Aces with no kicker -- Fold! -- the fish always play the ace, someone has you out kicked -- you aren't playing it for the ace, you wanted the flush, if you don't catch it, fold.

Re:calling river raises

I can count on one hand, following the 'standard' advice of not folding for one more bet on the river because it's a big pot, that I won the hand after calling a fish raise. You bet on the river -- fish raises you back -- fold or re-raise.

I am talking about the guy who gets AA pre-flop and doesn't raise, but merely limps in. Has top pair, or flops trips, and checks and calls all the way. Now, when this guy actually RAISES, what do you think he has? How many countless calls of one more bet did I make, to see the fish turn over the absolute nuts that he had since the flop? How many one more bets because the pot is really big VS actually winning with the crying call. Don't call the river raise, if you actually do think you have the fish beat -- then raise it back.

Going back to your "try to win the really big pot" scenario -- maybe you don't have the fish beat -- but by re-raising instead of calling, he might fold and you win. Simply wasting a bet to call to see the nuts is a leak, and believe me when a calling station suddenly raises on the river -- he has the nuts.

The check/call table -- check/call table is a loser.

There are some tables, that are not just calling stations, they are check/calling stations. By secret agreement, Everybody checks to the button, button bets, every one calls, rinse, repeat. If you bet, then it just changes, it is checked up to you, then every one calls. With so many going to the river, you are basically going to win 1 out of 10 pots. You win 1 and 9 times you are sucked out, or the absolute nuts takes the pot, which you would have folded had you known, but didn't have a clue since they checked/called with it all the way.

Everybody bets the same, every time. How can you put any one on a hand? You might think you are clever check/raising a hand -- only to see the absolute killer hand merely check/calling all the way and beating you. The pot size is fixed -- You might be able to get in a raise sometimes here or there, but it is basically 1/2 or 1 bet pre-flop, 1/2 or 1 bet post flop, 1 bet turn, 1 bet river. The pots you win = the pots you get sucked out on = You break even. The rake puts you behind, and since it basically takes two cycles to complete each street (once around checking, once around slowly calling) you are playing 1/2 the normal number of hands per hour (or less, since EVERY hand slowly goes to the river).

[Charlie_t_jr]

> EX:

> You are in MP and limp with JT suited, with
> 7 folks seeing flop. Flop comes A, J, 4
> rainbow. Checked to you on flop. Are you
> really going to bet this flop? In this
> situation, a check fold is in the cards for
> me. Remember, the pot is small.

If you do check, you'd be getting at least 7-1 on your call, are you really willing to fold to the guy betting that J8 offsuit or 34 suited? Sounds weak tight to me. If you do check and depending where the bet comes from, a check raise might be in order if you can narrow the field... if you bet out and get a lot of callers or a raise, you can now check fold the turn if you get no help.

> Ax suited is highly over-rated in low-limit
> games. I still play them, but disagree with
> many low-limit players that they are
> playable from anywhere. Generally, A3-A7
> suited, I do not play from EP. I'd rather
> play QJs or JTs from EP in the loosest of
> games.

If your in that game, where you have several callers and little raising, Ax suited is a very playable hand. As you point out, it gets tricky when an A flops and nothing to help your flush. To play the hand, you have to be willing to fold the A with out the kicker. If you can't bring yourself to fold a pair of A's, then no, you shouldn't be playing them in all positions. But if you have the discipline, these hands can be profitable.

> Folding to fish raises on the river when you
> do not hold the nuts is just bad advice.
> Better advice is when you hold a good, but
> not great hand, throw your chips at your
> opponent like there is no tommorrow. Make
> them fear YOU.

Throw chips like there's no tommorrow? If you have a good hand, but might be beat, I think the best thing to do is check - call. If it is the situation where a bet will only be called by a better hand, or raised by a better hand...or the bet causes the lesser hand to fold...best thing is to check call. You don't get raised by the better hand, and maybe the worst hand will bluff at the pot, but would have folded to your bet. (talking about heads up at river)...or maybe this is my weak-tight tendancy

SOTSOG, good post, but Mountebank does raise a good point about taking pot size into consideration...but that's a given, considering the type of game you where describing.

Good discussion.

[SOTSOG]

Curious Fish Behavior.

If you raise pre-flop, fish automatically assume that you have AA or AK or KK, since they "know" these are the only hands it is correct to raise pre-flop on (although they themselves will sometimes raise with Ace/Anything, or any two face cards).

At some tables, you will see a strange fish behavior. If you raise, you will get more callers than had you just limped in. It's like Joe Idiot says to himself, "Normally I would fold this 85o, but that guy raised, I'll call and see if my crap can beat his Aces!" And so, time after time, the fish take turns cracking your AA, KK with 93 two pair, or the 76 that becomes a straight, or the J7s that becomes a flush, etc.

Every time you raise pre-flop, the whole table calls (where normally at least two or three would fold), with a Let's see whose Junk will beat the Aces this time! And the urge-to-call is so strong among the fish, even if an Ace or King does hit the board, they are still going to call hoping for that miracle turn card.

If you are raising with AA or KK, this is actually a good thing. With these hands, the more money in the pot the better. The more callers of your raise and bets -- great! Sure, you will get suck out on more often with more players. Sure, no matter what the flop, somebody is going to get 2 pair, or if it is suited someone has the flush. But in the long run, you get more money the few times your hand holds up, and so the more callers the better.

But some hands you raise with pre-flop isn't AA. Some hands you raise with isn't to get more money into the pot, you raise to keep people out of it. Some hands do better with lessor callers. An example: 10 players in for $1 is worse than 5 players in for $2. Some hands are much more likely to win against 5 players and are pretty hopeless against 10. AQo is a hand that comes to mind, you really aren't raising to get more money in the pot, you are raising to keep potential drawers from getting in and out drawing your potential draws.

So in the above "let's get the raiser" fish game, following "the book" and raising with AQo is counter-productive. You are building a big pot for a fish to suck out on. With AA, your chances are better with 5 callers at $2 instead of 10 callers at $1, but you are still better off with 10 callers at $2. I don't think this holds true with AQo and several other hands. You want 5 at $2, but if it is going to be 10 at $2, you might as well not raise and get 8 at $1.

I don't know exactly what are the "raise to limit players" rather than "raise for value hands" are, or how position effects this, but I suspect 99 or TT are likely non-raising candidates that "the book" tells you to always raise pre-flop.

Another Scenario would be this type of play: You are dealt ATo in early position. ATo is a great hand against 1 or 2 players, but isn't that hot against 5 or 6. Being a really tight table, and being a little tricky, you raise pre-flop. You go to the flop with 1 guy protecting his blind, and 1 other caller. You stand a good chance of dragging a pot (aware of the fact that the 1 other caller must have a darn good hand), where as if you had limped in, you might be looking at the flop with 4 other good potential drawing players.

Easy to see how this trick play backfires on the Party Poker "Let's crack the Aces" raise caller table. Now your weak EP hand is looking at even more players than normal, and if an Ace does hit, the only caller you are going to get is the guy who can beat the trip Aces you don't have.

[Stingray]

good post SOTSOG.I,ve just being playing at party and it was great!A totally weak loose table.They were a lot of timid calling stations there.So when your good hands are beaten you don't lose much and when your good hands hold up you win more than you should!
I agree that bluffing is not really worth it at low-limit.Maybe on certain occasions with only 1 or 2 in the pot but i don't do it much.They will nearly always call you down,some will call you down with Q high or other such garbage.
I think Party has changed over the last year.When I started last summer it seemed very maniacal but now seems to be passive,or maybe I have just gotten more agressive!

[charlie_t_jr]

> Curious Fish Behavior.

I don't know if you have it, but Hold'em For Advanced Players(lastest edition) has an expanded section on loose games. They write about raises that will be called and providing pot odds for the chasers to be correct...might want to check it out.

[Mountebank]

Most of your notes are correct, but here are my thoughts. I have cut and pasted your text for ease - I hope I am not taking your post out of context.

> At some tables, you will see a strange fish
> behavior. If you raise, you will get more
> callers than had you just limped in. It's
> like Joe Idiot says to himself,
> "Normally I would fold this 85o, but
> that guy raised, I'll call and see if my
> crap can beat his Aces!" And so, time
> after time, the fish take turns cracking
> your AA, KK with 93 two pair, or the 76 that
> becomes a straight, or the J7s that becomes
> a flush, etc.

Let's talk about this in context below. This statement is a very good thing. You welcome with open arms your opponents coming in with their unsuited, dominated garbage.

> Every time you raise pre-flop, the whole
> table calls (where normally at least two or
> three would fold), with a Let's see whose
> Junk will beat the Aces this time! And the
> urge-to-call is so strong among the fish,
> even if an Ace or King does hit the board,
> they are still going to call hoping for that
> miracle turn card.

> If you are raising with AA or KK, this is
> actually a good thing. With these hands, the
> more money in the pot the better. The more
> callers of your raise and bets -- great!
> Sure, you will get suck out on more often
> with more players. Sure, no matter what the
> flop, somebody is going to get 2 pair, or if
> it is suited someone has the flush. But in
> the long run, you get more money the few
> times your hand holds up, and so the more
> callers the better.

I agree.

> But some hands you raise with pre-flop isn't
> AA. Some hands you raise with isn't to get
> more money into the pot, you raise to keep
> people out of it. Some hands do better with
> lessor callers. An example: 10 players in
> for $1 is worse than 5 players in for $2.
> Some hands are much more likely to win
> against 5 players and are pretty hopeless
> against 10. AQo is a hand that comes to
> mind, you really aren't raising to get more
> money in the pot, you are raising to keep
> potential drawers from getting in and out
> drawing your potential draws.

This is only partially true, and misleading. The reason you raise with AQo in these low-limit games, even if you know the fish will school behind you calling two cold, is because your hand at that moment is so much better than the trash that they are playing. You MUST raise here to punish those who are playing garbage. Wouldn't you rather have someone holding J7o calling two cold, rather than 1? Punish the damn limpers for playing with inadequate values. You are +EV in this situation, because your opponent's play is so horrendous.

> So in the above "let's get the
> raiser" fish game, following "the
> book" and raising with AQo is
> counter-productive.

No, it's not. It's positive EV if your opponents play terribly.

>You are building a big
> pot for a fish to suck out on.

I hope you don't take offense, because I know you don't mean it this way, but you are sounding like you are afraid to play big pots with AQo. It sounds like you are afraid of playing these big unsuiteds due to a fear of the roof caving in. Sometimes it does. But a great deal of time, my A with a Q kicker, or Q w/Ace kicker will hold up nicely.

>With AA, your
> chances are better with 5 callers at $2
> instead of 10 callers at $1, but you are
> still better off with 10 callers at $2. I
> don't think this holds true with AQo and
> several other hands. You want 5 at $2, but
> if it is going to be 10 at $2, you might as
> well not raise and get 8 at $1.

> I don't know exactly what are the
> "raise to limit players" rather
> than "raise for value hands" are,
> or how position effects this, but I suspect
> 99 or TT are likely non-raising candidates
> that "the book" tells you to
> always raise pre-flop.

My rule of thumb in the low limit games: I raise AK (suited or unsuited), AQ (suited or unsuited), AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT from anywhere, especially if I am first in. Nines, eights and sevens I will raise depending on situation.

> Another Scenario would be this type of play:
> You are dealt ATo in early position. ATo is
> a great hand against 1 or 2 players, but
> isn't that hot against 5 or 6. Being a
> really tight table, and being a little
> tricky, you raise pre-flop. You go to the
> flop with 1 guy protecting his blind, and 1
> other caller. You stand a good chance of
> dragging a pot (aware of the fact that the 1
> other caller must have a darn good hand),
> where as if you had limped in, you might be
> looking at the flop with 4 other good
> potential drawing players.

> Easy to see how this trick play backfires on
> the Party Poker "Let's crack the
> Aces" raise caller table. Now your weak
> EP hand is looking at even more players than
> normal, and if an Ace does hit, the only
> caller you are going to get is the guy who
> can beat the trip Aces you don't have.

Agree. ATo sucks and is vunerable to many different hands. I realize what you said in your last post, that I am comparing apples to oranges. Most of my play is live low-limit. Some on-line, but not much. So you probably have different experiences. But, I stick by my opinions.

Maybe 10,000 hands on line would change my thinking :-).

[Brick Waller]

I dont gamble over the internet so I have zilch experience of the competition. However your tactics would be considered very agressive and loose in real casino competition and your plays are apt to quickly be recognized which could lead to devastating results. They would have more value if all tables were half empty and seated by idiots, but these conditions are seldom seen in real world casinos.

Consistently raising under pairs at full tables in hopes of bluffing,getting to see a free card or nobody having the Ace,king,queen,etc. will not work in the long run. I would definitely tighten up and cut down on the come bets and under card raises and so forth,it'll often keep you from being trapped.