hi: BJ on poker machine

[hi]

I once read somewhere that some poker machine cheats(legally) to obtain the required hold.

There is BJ(1/2/4 deck) on poker machine with 75% penetration. The MINtoMAX is about 20 times.

However I read that some machine will alter the random-ness of the cards so that the dealer wins a bit more if the machine have lost a lot.
(I suppose it also does the opposite when it has won a lot.)

Can someone confirm/deny this? And how do I find if the machine is truely random from cheating ones?

[Parker]

> I once read somewhere that some poker
> machine cheats(legally) to obtain the
> required hold.

> There is BJ(1/2/4 deck) on poker machine
> with 75% penetration. The MINtoMAX is about
> 20 times.

> However I read that some machine will alter
> the random-ness of the cards so that the
> dealer wins a bit more if the machine have
> lost a lot.
> (I suppose it also does the opposite when it
> has won a lot.)

> Can someone confirm/deny this? And how do I
> find if the machine is truely random from
> cheating ones?

I once read somewhere that casinos "tighten up" all of the their slot machines before holiday weekends. Fortunately, I don't believe everything I read.

The payout of a slot machine is set by the manufacturer when the machine is built, and cannot be easily changed. It is controlled by a random number generator, which is not affected by how much (or little) it has recently paid out. Every pull is completely random, and has exactly the same chance of resulting in a winner.

If the machine is made by one of the major manufacturers (Bally, IGT, Mikohn, etc.), it is reasonably safe to assume that it is honest.

In Nevada, video poker games much be based on a real, 52 card deck. I'm not sure about other areas.

Be wary of machines offering blackjack. Quite often, the blackjack payout is "2 for 1" rather than the customary 3 to 2. What this means is that the machine pays two units for every unit bet for a blackjack, but keeps the original bet, win or lose. In other words, a blackjack actually pays even money.

Since this gives the machine an edge of over 2%, no cheating is necessary. The machine will quickly (and legally) separate you from your money.

[hi]

> In Nevada, video poker games much be based
> on a real, 52 card deck. I'm not sure about
> other areas.

What I read at the time also said machine in Nevada is not allowed to cheat, that the game is based on real cards and real random-ness. Then it goes on to say that in other area machines are allowed to alter the randome-ness (legally) so the machines achieves the required hold percentage.

The BJ machines in my area are definitely beatable, and the casino has reduced the max bets in return. However if the machines is played continuesly, then eventually it will tighten up. We had to go through the cycle of play for a few hours and let the machines "cool down" for a few weeks.

It's possible the feel of tighten up could be selected memory. However I feel the "tightening" is beyond what is possible under statistical norm.

[Parker]

> What I read at the time also said machine in
> Nevada is not allowed to cheat, that the
> game is based on real cards and real
> random-ness. Then it goes on to say that in
> other area machines are allowed to alter the
> randome-ness (legally) so the machines
> achieves the required hold percentage.

You're confusing randomness with odds. In Nevada, the odds must be exactly the same as an actual deck of cards. In other words, the odds of your getting, for example, 3 of a kind on a video poker machine are exactly the same as the odds of your being dealt 3 of a kind in a live game of draw poker with a deck of 52 cards.

In some other areas, the machine may use symbols from cards like jack, queens, etc., but it is just a slot machine, no different than if cherries, lemons, 7's, etc. were used. The odds of 3 of a kind, royal flush, etc., coming up could be anything.

Both types of machines are random. The odds of winning are just different.

> The BJ machines in my area are definitely
> beatable, and the casino has reduced the max
> bets in return. However if the machines is
> played continuesly, then eventually it will
> tighten up. We had to go through the cycle
> of play for a few hours and let the machines
> "cool down" for a few weeks.

> It's possible the feel of tighten up could
> be selected memory. However I feel the
> "tightening" is beyond what is
> possible under statistical norm.

Just because a machine is random does not mean that it cannot have streaks, just like a live game. Also, just as in the live game, it is impossible to predict when these streaks will begin or end. This doesn't mean the the machine is "tightening" or "loosening" - it's just the nature of randomness.

[Cacarulo]

> I once read somewhere that some poker
> machine cheats(legally) to obtain the
> required hold.

> There is BJ(1/2/4 deck) on poker machine
> with 75% penetration. The MINtoMAX is about
> 20 times.

> However I read that some machine will alter
> the random-ness of the cards so that the
> dealer wins a bit more if the machine have
> lost a lot.
> (I suppose it also does the opposite when it
> has won a lot.)

> Can someone confirm/deny this? And how do I
> find if the machine is truely random from
> cheating ones?

I firmly believe that some IGT Video BJ machines do cheat. So, beware!

I don't know but I think that they have a switch inside which can be set to two different positions:

1) Normal or easy
2) Unbeatable

When they set it to unbeatable there is no way you can win. It is easy to notice the unbelievable number of 20s, 21s and BJs made by the dealer from scratch when this happens.

Perhaps there is no switch but I'm sure that the RNG is far from being random.

Sincerely,
Cacarulo

[Brick Waller]

What's your thoughts on the randomness of internet BJ? I've never had a desire to even fickle with internet gambling. My senses tell me not waste my time and money.

[Bettie]

> What I read at the time also said machine in
> Nevada is not allowed to cheat, that the
> game is based on real cards and real
> random-ness. Then it goes on to say that in
> other area machines are allowed to alter the
> randome-ness (legally) so the machines
> achieves the required hold percentage.

The following is taken from our VP FAQ, written by Dan Paymar (any more questions on machines can be answered by him on our VP forum). The emphasis is mine.

"Louisiana regulations on video poker are even more explicit than Nevada, but most other gaming areas are woefully short on meaningful regulations. However, Nevada Gaming Control requires that any manufacturer selling gaming devices in Nevada must certify that all of their machines shipped anywhere meet the Nevada standards. Of course this doesn't prevent someone from changing the program chip after a machine is shipped. To be safe, you may want to avoid games in unregulated areas (including cruise ships, nearly all internet casinos, and most Indian casinos), especially if you don't recognize the machine manufacturer."

Bettie

[Dog Hand]

> Be wary of machines offering blackjack.
> Quite often, the blackjack payout is "2
> for 1" rather than the customary 3 to
> 2. What this means is that the machine pays
> two units for every unit bet for a
> blackjack, but keeps the original bet, win
> or lose. In other words, a blackjack
> actually pays even money.

> Since this gives the machine an edge of over
> 2%, no cheating is necessary. The machine
> will quickly (and legally) separate you from
> your money.

Parker,

I've seen even worse than this... The machine dealt a single-deck game with D9. Sounded ok, so I gave it a try. The minimum bet was $0.02 (Yes, 2 cents). I deposited a dollar, and ponied up my 2 pennies. I won the first hand, and saw my total swell to... $1.03! That's right... a straight win paid 1 to 2, NOT 1 to 1. Needless to say, I didn't stick around long enough to find out what a BJ paid.

Dog Hand

[Saboteur]

As soon as you play a hand, the machine "takes" your two cents. That leaves you with a balance of 98 cents. You were dealt a BJ, so the machine gave you your original wager back (two cents) and paid you three cents, bringing your total to $1.03.

If you were seated at a regular BJ table, the scenario would have played out exactly the same. You have $100 in chips in front of you, so you slide $2 into the betting circle. The dealer deals you a BJ, then slides $3 (your winnings) into the betting circle, right next to your original $2. If you were to quit right then, you'd leave the table with $103.

The thing to watch out for on the BJ machines is when the payout table shows "3 FOR 2". In that scenario, you would have had $1.01 after your winning BJ, not $1.03. The machine would have "kept" your original two-cent wager, exchanging it FOR your three-cent win.

[Alan]

> I firmly believe that some IGT Video BJ
> machines do cheat. So, beware!

> I don't know but I think that they have a
> switch inside which can be set to two
> different positions:

> 1) Normal or easy
> 2) Unbeatable

It's hard to know what to believe. I've played and logged these machines for 500 hours now and multiple locations and I'm ahead. But not by much. I've made about $9 per hour where my CVCX sims indicate I should be averaging $30. Even after 500 hours at 200 hands per hour (average) it is not outside the realm of statistical probability for this to occur. In fact, it is even possible to be slightly behind after this long!

And yes I've seen some unbelievable hands by the dealer, which makes you wonder. I was the victim of a dealer getting 6 blackjacks in a row once - I kid you not. And the count was very negative (fortunately for me.)

The only conclusions I've been able to draw so far are:

1) The machine MAY be honest - it doesn't have to cheat to make money
2) The machine may merely be paying back at a set long run percentage and that people who play an advantage game are winning a larger share of that "pie" than those who aren't. (I suspect that this is more likely, but I just don't know.)

The only way to be fairly certain is to speak to a real "insider" at the place of manufacture or to play for 5-to-10,000 hours. At a maximum 500 hours a year, it would be some time before I have the answer!

Quite frankly, after 500 hours I've had enough.

Good luck.

[MrPill]

>You
> were dealt a BJ, so the machine gave you
> your original wager back (two cents) and
> paid you three cents, bringing your total to
> $1.03.

Saboteur,

Actually it appears that Dog Hand was getting paid this for a straight win, not a BJ. He states that he didn't hang around for a BJ payout.

This might actually be a very good game to play, could make alot of pennies at it depending on all the other rules.

Pill

P.S. I wonder what the BJ actually paid?

[Saboteur]

I guess the term "straight win" coupled with the odd payoff confused the heck outta me, although I'm still not convinced that a total of $1.03 after just one two-cent hand is indicative of a 1-2 payout. That just doesn't add up, does it? It seems to me that a 1-2 payout after one regular blackjack hand would leave a total of $1.01, not $1.03.

Maybe I'm missing something here. I'll leave it at that, since I've already tossed in my two-cents' worth!

[Brick Waler]

> I firmly believe that some IGT Video BJ
> machines do cheat. So, beware!

> I don't know but I think that they have a
> switch inside which can be set to two
> different positions:

> 1) Normal or easy
> 2) Unbeatable

After doing some research on the internet about the randomness of internet blackjack,a professional mathmetician and theorist has proved that the cheating of non-random events does exist. He used the "chi-square" formula to prove this.

The secret is many gamblers have accepted internet casinos cheat but due to bonuses they believe money can easily be made and they would rather not talk about it.

The Chi-square formula seems to be the only practical method to use without costing a small fortune.

Is the "chi-square" method an effective formula in proving random events?

thanks,
Brick

> When they set it to unbeatable there is no
> way you can win. It is easy to notice the
> unbelievable number of 20s, 21s and BJs made
> by the dealer from scratch when this
> happens.

> Perhaps there is no switch but I'm sure that
> the RNG is far from being random.

> Sincerely,
> Cacarulo