Is there something wrong with my WONG?

[FinanceGhost]

Hey guys! New to the forum and I have a question I am hoping someone can answer or at least give me some insight on.

I live in Oklahoma and at our local indian casinos they have (generally) decent games. Good penetration, 6 deck shoes, S on soft 17 etc. The problem comes in with one rule that I think is rather unique to Oklahoma. For every hand you play you have to pay a 50 cent anty. Win or lose you have to pay 50 cents for the right to risk your money. Crazy.

My first question is how common is this? I haven't heard of it anywhere except here.

Second question is, mathematically, does this destroy a player as much as I think it does making the game unplayable in a normal fashion where you sit down and spread your bet based on the count?

Third question, below I have posted how I have been playing. I would like to just go in and sit down and play like normal, regardless of the count, but I think the anty I have to pay will make this a bad decision. What are your thoughs?

I have a VERY small bankroll at the moment so what I have been doing is just hanging out around the casino TRYING not to be obvious that I count. Then when I find a good shoe, which is usually down to about 2 or 2.5 decks left in play I will wong in. I will then play 2 hands at about $20 each (nickle table) so each round cost me a dollar to play but I've got $40 on the layout and I don't get any heat because I usually only play until the end of the shoe so I'm only at the table for about 5 minutes (though I may be at the casino for several hours before I find a good shoe).

Given the situation with the Anty is this my only option or am I being paranoid and the Anty wont be that big of a deal in the long run?

***Let me also say that if I have ANY reason to believe there is an AP at the table, which isn't often, I WILL NOT WONG IN.*** Thanks for your input!

[zerg]

If you are waiting until TC 4, you are Wonging in with about a 2% advantage. Your expected win would be about 80 cents on $40. I would not pay $1 to win 80 cents. An improvement would be to play 1 hand at $40. Your expected win would still be 80 cents, but it would only cost you 50 cents to place the bet. Now you can expect to make roughly 30 cents per hand in the long run, but you will almost certainly bust before you get there with you VERY small bankroll.

If you enjoy backcounting and placing these bets, Id say switch to one hand and continue to play. Using that strategy you will be playing smarter than 99.9% of the people around you. But don't get your hopes up until you find a better game and get a bigger bankroll. You won't realistically make money doing this for many reasons.

[BigHow]

Do they make you ante at the $25 tables?

[jgrinspan]

Do they make you ante at the $25 tables?

yes, ante no matter what.

[Three]

Risking $20.50 to win $19.50 each hand is not good. They better offer a positive game or near positive off the top or this will kill you. At 60 hands/hr it costs $30/hr and $50/hr if you can play 100 hands/hr. By wonging you eliminate a lot of hands but you need very large bets to make the ante less significant. Some casinos in OK only have 25 cent antes. Others waive the ante on certain dates or for use of a players card. One even offers an essentially even money game (-.02% HE) by offering ES on a dealer ace and LS on a dealer 10 with 25 cent ante. Without the use of these cost trimming efforts you are making things very time consuming and difficult for your chances. I would look to play elsewhere if you want to make money.

[Finrod]

The ante rules are fairly unique to Oklahoma. I have heard of some east coast casinos charging antes for the right to play low stakes games, which is of course a ridiculous rip off. Do not pay antes! There are opportunities to play BJ in Oklahoma with no antes. These are the only games in Oklahoma you should consider playing.

[bigplayer]

The tribes are supposed to make their money on the ante and any profits from the actual game belong to the players. The fact that the tribes are so aggressive at barring players for skill tells me that there must be some added skimming of profits from the players pool going on by the tribes....otherwise, it should not matter to them what "style of play" players use as long as they pay the ante. I think when players come in and win during promotional giveback of the player pool it upsets the tribe because they were counting on stealing that money for themselves....especially the more notorious outlaw tribes.

[Timbertom]

For every hand you play yVeou have to pay a 50 cent anty. Win or lose you have to pay 50 cents for the right to risk your money. Crazy.
Crazy is right. If you are averaging 100 hands a hour that is $50 a hour. Depending on the rules you would have to be playing $25 min to break even or have a profit. Wonging in and out at TC of+4 makes for a long and boring night.
Let us hope no one from Las Vegas ever visits OK.

[atliia]

Some casinos in my area with lower limit games such as Mystic Lake's $1 blackjack game have antes. $0.25 ante on a $1.00 hand!

[Three]

In Ac you can avoid the ante by betting the $10 table max at most places. Of course you can't spread. Worthless to an AP.

[Frostbyte]

The ante rules are fairly unique to Oklahoma. I have heard of some east coast casinos charging antes for the right to play low stakes games, which is of course a ridiculous rip off. Do not pay antes! There are opportunities to play BJ in Oklahoma with no antes. These are the only games in Oklahoma you should consider playing.

It was my understanding that many of the SoCal cardrooms also charge per-hand fees. In any case, this sort of game should never, ever be played, whether for recreation or profit.

[metronome]

The tribes are supposed to make their money on the ante and any profits from the actual game belong to the players. The fact that the tribes are so aggressive at barring players for skill tells me that there must be some added skimming of profits from the players pool going on by the tribes....otherwise, it should not matter to them what "style of play" players use as long as they pay the ante. I think when players come in and win during promotional giveback of the player pool it upsets the tribe because they were counting on stealing that money for themselves....especially the more notorious outlaw tribes.

I too have wondered about skimming. I mean it's a player banked game vs. a house banked game. Why would they give a rat's patootie how I play (or count). And the insult of a dollar ante on any bet over $25? or something like that. That said, I've had winning sessions by back-counting and jumping in for a few hands, and right back out because of the count and ante. And A LOT of standing around watching shoes. Whatever you do, don't "play all", EVER at ante bj.
Oh, and there's nothing wrong with your wong unless it burns

[Tarzan]

A few years back I was doing a roadtrip out west and was researching blackjack stops along the route. I came upon this curious 50 cent ante thing in Oklahoma and knew I wouldn't be stopping in Oklahoma for anything other than gas! There was another thread about this back on Blackjackinfo way back and it was pointed out there also just as in this thread. You end up paying about $50 an hour off the top in addition to the house advantage already in place if you are banging out 100 hands per hour! This is an unbeatable game... If you are willing to play under these conditions, then you are wealthy and don't care in the least about ever winning. If you are NOT wealthy and couldn't care the least about ever winning, does that put you in another category, which is insane gambler with a gambling problem? Don't play blackjack in Oklahoma. Period. Ever. Leave that sort of action to those too stupid to know the difference.