Sun Runner: Blackjack Hall of Fame

[Don Schlesinger]

I appreciate the kind words, but I think it's time to end this thread and move on. James obviously knows Vinny D and simply tried to step in as an intermediary in the discussion.

His description of the group and the process makes it pretty clear that they don't place much emphasis on the "oldtimers" or the "legends" of the game, but rather prize those who are into the more modern scene and the methods for extracting money from casinos.

That's fine, but then they should make the distinction between a true Blackjack Hall of Fame and a Blackjack Club for legendary players. Although the initial ballot didn't reflect that (nice of them to let Thorp and Griffin in!), it would appear that future votings will be oriented that way. Hey -- it's Max's Hall of Fame, so he can do whatever he pleases. A shame, however, that the most worthy candidates were ignored.

Don

[Sun Runner]

> I appreciate the kind words, ...

Don't get to feeling all embarrassed or anything. I don't know you personally either. It was just that Syph decided to throw in with a "proof-reader of BJA3" and I, since we seemed to agree on this topic, decided to throw in with the "author."

Seemed like a good advantage play for me; he was wide open on that one.

(BTW, of the BJ books I have read, ya'll need to get better proof-readers.)

I'm not pimping for anyone .. except maybe Julian Braun.

> James obviously knows Vinny D and simply
> tried to step in as an intermediary in the
> discussion.

Vinny D seems capable of taking care of himself. Although Vinny not voting for Braun because "his numbers were wrong." What's up with that!?

> but I think it's time to end this thread and move on.

> His description of the group and the process
> makes it pretty clear that they don't place
> much emphasis on the "oldtimers"
> or the "legends" of the game, but
> rather prize those who are into the more
> modern scene and the methods for extracting
> money from casinos.

> That's fine, but then they should make the
> distinction between a true Blackjack Hall of
> Fame and a Blackjack Club for legendary
> players. Although the initial ballot didn't
> reflect that (nice of them to let Thorp and
> Griffin in!), it would appear that future
> votings will be oriented that way.

See .. it's hard for even you to move on.

> Hey --it's Max's Hall of Fame, so he can do
> whatever he pleases.

And it appears they will. Why? Because they can.

"Guess what Mom, I'm in the BJ Hall of Fame."
"Really son, how did that happen?"
"I elected myself."
"What about Julian Braun?"
"Oh, come on Mom, as if. You know he's dead, he couldn't vote. Anyway, I doubt we would have invited him to the gala; his numbers were wrong."

.... moving on now. No one left to alienate!

[J Morgan]

Don: "His description of the group and the process makes it pretty clear that they don't place much emphasis on the "oldtimers" or the "legends" of the game, but rather prize those who are into the more modern scene and the methods for extracting money from casinos."

Each person votes individually, so there is no one approach, but I'd still say your statement isn't true at all. Taft is absolutely an oldtimer and legend in the game. Thorp, Griffin, Wong--they're all oldtimers and legends. Al Francesco too. Uston certainly isn't an active player these days. Virtually everyone in there is an oldtimer and legend. I didn't see Maria the Greek get in. I didn't see Johnny Chang get in. I didn't see Richard Dougherty get in.

Braun was just a few votes short, but I'm sure he'll get in soon. Why is everyone up in arms? There are many worthy candidates, and only so many admitted at a time.

[Don Schlesinger]

> Braun was just a few votes short, but I'm
> sure he'll get in soon. Why is everyone up
> in arms? There are many worthy candidates,
> and only so many admitted at a time.

Personally, I'm much more "up in arms" about Max than about Keith. You don't address that issue at all. If Max has made some overwhelming contributions to the game of blackjack, I guess his guests know more about them than the rest of us.

Don

[Don Schlesinger]

The public vote, which was conducted on Anthony Curtis's site, was won convincingly by Curtis (I finished second).

The final vote, conducted by Max (at his house?), was won by Keith and Max. I'd say the "home-field advantage" is rather strong, wouldn't you? Also, being present for the voting doesn't seem to hurt, either.

In any event, say what you will -- Max over the likes of Braun, Revere, and Humble (leaving me out of it) is just plain stupid -- and the voting crowd doesn't strike me as being dumb, so one has to wonder what the true motivation is for voting as it did.

Don

[Sun Runner]

> Braun was just a few votes short, but I'm
> sure he'll get in soon. Why is everyone up
> in arms? There are many worthy candidates,
> and only so many admitted at a time.

How gracious to throw Braun the bone.

"Maybe next year Julian, just try harder."
"Oops, I'm sorry, you can't."

Based on how things seem to work in the Hall, Braun will get in only after those who are able have elbowed their way in first.

When asked what Rubin has done for the game of BJ, your only answer is to respond from on high that .. "those who don't know him personally are foolish to comment on it."

Well thank you. Why don't you clue in the foolish as to all his many contributions? I guess he consults for a casino, right? That should count for something. He's helping the civilians score those comps, that's good. And he must be very trustworthy, consulting for a casino and all, or you guys wouldn't be partying at his big house in SoCal, right?

And by the way, your friend "Vinny D." Nope, don't know him either but he must be hooked up. Tell Vinny that he is right, there is a huge amount of ignorance on this board -that is why I come, to learn -but I don't need him or you referring to me .. as foolish.

How 'bout it JP. Want to help out the foolish and tell us why Rubin's work beats Braun's?

[Pro21]

I started by reading Playing Blackjack as a Business, and I certainly believe that Revere and Braun belong in the HoF. (I wouldn't put Humble in the same category)

I read Revere's book & Wong's Professionl Blackjack in about '76. Since then the 2 books that have by FAR put the most money in my pocket are Beyond Counting, and Comp City. And I'm not talking about free rooms and meals. I'm talking CASH in my pocket. For most "professionals" I think this is true. Perhaps that is why they feel that Max's contribution has been a great one.

[Norm Wattenberger]

Well, I wouldn?t say it quite that way. There was a BJ ?award? ?show.? People like to make comments after any such an exposition and I don?t see a problem with that no matter how silly I think the concept. Posters are allowed to make some comments on both their picks and methodology if the club makes it public. You don?t want comments, don?t make it public. There are now over 100 award shows in the entertainment industry, 22 of which were created in the last seven years. But, they have an excuse. It sells tickets and CDs. I?ve always thought these shows a joke and have never watched one to the end. People patting each other on the back doesn?t interest me.

In this case, an award show is published, and then a few people make a decision in a secret meeting. If you don?t want comments on the actions of your club, don?t advertise the event or post a fake poll as if it matters.

I support all levels of BJ play: From simply reducing losses for entertainment purposes, to occasional advantage play, to weekend warrior play, to temporary job replacement play, to full-time counting, to any level of legal expert play. If someone's goals are different, they might look down on players with different motivation. I don?t see it that way.

JPM, you are a brilliant mathematician and people that count know your contributions to the field of BJ, in theory and in practice. But, is BJ HOF what you want on your tombstone?

We aren't 'up in arms.' Just making some comments on our concepts of value in this field. I think we have that right without someone calling us 'ignorant.'

Just my silly opinion.

[Real Man]

Hey, I'd rather be ignorant than stupid

I hear you.Just as we may not know Max,J Morgan does not know us either. This does not mean we're kids with peanuts.

In my ignorance,I dont understand why the Bigshots of Blackjack would be partying with Max and casino affilliates? These guys,I'm sure play some of the best blackjack in the world,it's quite possible they are strong tournament players who,of course, must use a different means of strategy which is opposed to card counting.

Maybe I'm ingnorant of tournaments and non-conventional methods that the real Bigshots use. One advantage these guys have over us little ol' underground card counters, is perhaps, they have no need or desire to remain anonymous,as we do,quite ironic,isn't it?-after all card counting is close to useless in tournaments. I've never seen anyone get kicked out of tournaments for counting cards. Casinos couldn't care less.

Max's contributions(in general)to the wonderful game of casino blackjack have been huge. I dont know Max personally,however his name is very popular in regards to blackjack.

Due to his appearances on TV and internet, he is actually one of the hugest contributors to the BJ community as a whole. To sum it up,he's helped to increase the popularity and interest of blackjack to the public and has helped casino patrons get a big bang for the buck. This is greatly appreciated by myself and probably many others who are out in the field grinding away what little edge we have. Under these conditions if many feel this a ground for Hall of Fame,then I kinda....well sorta, understand.

Real Man

[Magician]

Why not start your own hall of fame? I don't think Max has any exclusive rights here. The blackjack elite could have their HoF and us mere mortals could have ours. Publicly disclosing the criteria for entry and the voting procedure would be a good start.

Personally, I'd like to thank everyone who's ever made a positive contribution to the advantage play community and leave it at that.

[Syph]

> If you don't mind, I'll side with the guy
> that wrote BJA3.

> SR

I don`t mind at all. As a matter of fact, I encourage it.



Syph

[Syph]

> Seemed like a good advantage play for me; he
> was wide open on that one.

Weak.

There is no conflict between Don and James, nor did what I say imply any. Mr. Schlessinger`s work is top notch, for what it is.

True, Beyond Counting now resides where Blackjack Attack once did on my bookshelf, err...tatami mat. And, likely, Beyond Counting II will levitate, part water, and include a get out of jail free card.

If not, I will be disappointed.

But I digress...

One of the biggest problems on these boards are peons, like you and I, driving off the true professionals.

Where is the advantage play in that?

If you, or anyone, have any doubts about Mr. Grosjean`s credentials, or if you are not aware of his contribution to advantage play...please listen to Arnold Snyder`s review of Beyond Counting:

This 223-page book establishes Jesse Morgan (James Grosjean) as an expert on casino gambling at the very top of the upper echelons of expertise. I can not praise this work highly enough, nor begin to describe the value contained within its pages for professional players in this concise review. In my opinion, Morgan is on a level with Peter Griffin, Don Schlesinger, Stanford Wong, and a handful of others in both his understanding of advantage play, and in his original work on not only blackjack but many other casino games.

But you should already know this, you do have his book...don`t you?

Best,
Syph

[Sun Runner]

> Max's contributions ... have been huge.

> ... he is actually one of the hugest contributors to the BJ community ...

> ... if many feel this a ground for Hall of Fame, then I kinda....well sorta, understand.

Come on now, Real Man, don't let the "bigshots" sway your opinion. On January 9th, you thought Rubin's contribution was .. "pretty nil" .. and the only possible way he could get voted in was with the help of his "(casino) friends."

Look, I'm sure Mr. Rubin is a warm and wonderful guy. I bear him no ill will at all and am not trying to demean anything he has accomplished for BJ directly, or me indirectly.

I just think the thing should be based on a person's body-of-work. From my ignorant and foolish vantage point, Braun's seems to loom over at least two, maybe three, of the other current Hall of Fame award winners.

That's all.

BTW, Morgan, your book is next up on my list. No kidding. Hope I can find one.