Norm Wattenberger: Standards for the measurement of skills

[Norm Wattenberger]

A long recurrent question has been the speed required to count down a deck. It seems to me that there are several such questions ? speed and accuracy in counting multiple cards, speed and accuracy of index recall, decision making, deck estimation, etc. Additional standards for those using side-counts, shuffle-tracking or other advanced techniques. Seems to me that the establishment of standards could be useful to new players, players wishing to attempt more advanced techniques, players bothered by recent losses and teams evaluating current and new players. (The creation of CVTest was an attempt at creating standardized tests.)

My questions to the group ? would the creation of standards be useful? If so, how do we go about it?

[Don Schlesinger]

> My questions to the group ? would the
> creation of standards be useful? If so, how
> do we go about it?

I've known many teams (including my own!), and the standards they used vary somewhat. I'm not sure you can "legislate" how fast someone needs to be able to count a deck, or remember an index, because the circumstances under which he/she is going to use those skills vary widely.

But, if you simply want to set some ranges for reference, I see nothing wrong with creating guidlelines.

Don

[Norm Wattenberger]

I certainly don?t want to legislate the definition of a counter or worse ?certify? counters. Nor can all skills be numerically evaluated. Just looking to create some benchmarks. It might keep some beginners out of the casinos before they?re ready, help people ?bone up? on their skills after a vacation from the game, keep people from moving to more advanced techniques prematurely, assure that you are ?up to par? before going downstairs to play, help large team managers evaluate prospects or even re-evaluate members with poor results. In the past I?ve always stressed results relative to your own past results. I?m thinking that absolute results or results relative to other players might be of added value.

Serious Blackjack Software

[John Lewis]

> I certainly don?t want to legislate the
> definition of a counter or worse ?certify?
> counters. Nor can all skills be numerically
> evaluated. Just looking to create some
> benchmarks. It might keep some beginners out
> of the casinos before they?re ready, help
> people ?bone up? on their skills after a
> vacation from the game, keep people from
> moving to more advanced techniques
> prematurely, assure that you are ?up to par?
> before going downstairs to play, help large
> team managers evaluate prospects or even
> re-evaluate members with poor results. In
> the past I?ve always stressed results
> relative to your own past results. I?m
> thinking that absolute results or results
> relative to other players might be of added
> value.

Norm

Upon reading Parker's review of Casino Verite it seems evident to me that a slight adaptation or addition to that program could easily provide the type of skill assessment tool that you suggest would be worthwhile.

Perhaps the manufacturers of Casino Verite, at your urging, would be interested in adding this feature to future editions.

[Norm Wattenberger]

No problem adding the feature as CV generates scores for dozens of drills. The question is how do we come up with standards. I could have made up my own, but what I think is needed is a concensus.

> Norm

> Upon reading Parker's review of Casino
> Verite it seems evident to me that a slight
> adaptation or addition to that program could
> easily provide the type of skill assessment
> tool that you suggest would be worthwhile.

> Perhaps the manufacturers of Casino Verite,
> at your urging, would be interested in
> adding this feature to future editions.

[ComboProf]

allow the user to enter there own standards
and have CV report the users sucess wrt to the
entered standards.

Perhaps have some SUGGESTED stardards templates.
already in CV, that the user could modify.

> No problem adding the feature as CV
> generates scores for dozens of drills. The
> question is how do we come up with
> standards. I could have made up my own, but
> what I think is needed is a concensus.

[Sun Runner]

> .. it seems evident to me that a slight
> adaptation or addition to that program could
> easily provide ..

Programming is a piece of cake, right Norm?

A hundred hours; that seem about right!?

[Norm Wattenberger]

> Programming is a piece of cake, right Norm?

> A hundred hours; that seem about right!?

The programming behind this is not that messy. It's fighting Bill Gates' bugs that I find a challenge to my pacifism

[Norm Wattenberger]

Good suggestion and I'll add that capability. But, what I would still like is a consensus on the standard templates as opposed to simply my opinions.

> allow the user to enter there own standards
> and have CV report the users sucess wrt to
> the
> entered standards.

> Perhaps have some SUGGESTED stardards
> templates.
> already in CV, that the user could modify.

Serious Blackjack Software

[David]

> My questions to the group ? would the
> creation of standards be useful? If so, how
> do we go about it?

My vote is not usefull. Our success is measured in money. The world is full of people who do well in exams, but cannot measure up when the game is for real.

[Norm Wattenberger]

> My vote is not usefull. Our success is
> measured in money. The world is full of
> people who do well in exams, but cannot
> measure up when the game is for real.

OTOH, the world is not full of people that fail exams and do well in most disciplines.

[John Lewis]

> No problem adding the feature as CV
> generates scores for dozens of drills. The
> question is how do we come up with
> standards. I could have made up my own, but
> what I think is needed is a concensus.

If Casino Verite generates numbers on various skills, as you (reliably) inform us, then an extremely valuable, feasible set of tests is already at hand.

For team use, the evaluator simply has to be familiar with the pertinent Casino Verite tests and be able to properly rate and assess them.

Of course this presently available Casino Verite man-with-keyboard/screen data on raw skills would not be all the data an evaluator would desire.

Casino Verite evaluation of skills under various circumstances, perhaps most notably the skill score while simultaneously maintaining relaxed coversation, would be particularly valuable.

But, Norm, I have concluded that you are interested in a definitive, objective test that would yield a single number that would serve as a universally acknowledged index of skill. Much as the IQ test has been developed to yield a single number (g) which ranks intelligence.

This will not be attainable without specification of game rules. Skill at any game depends partially on index mastery of that particular game.

To standardize and express skills to a single numerical value a specific set of rules would need be agreed on for the standard test.

I'd suggest old Vegas Strip rules, multideck.

[Norm Wattenberger]

I think one single number would be too limiting. I'd rather see a few guidelines for different types of players. But I do see your point on some standardization in the test setup.

> If Casino Verite generates numbers on
> various skills, as you (reliably) inform us,
> then an extremely valuable, feasible set of
> tests is already at hand.

> For team use, the evaluator simply has to be
> familiar with the pertinent Casino Verite
> tests and be able to properly rate and
> assess them.

> Of course this presently available Casino
> Verite man-with-keyboard/screen data on raw
> skills would not be all the data an
> evaluator would desire.

> Casino Verite evaluation of skills under
> various circumstances, perhaps most notably
> the skill score while simultaneously
> maintaining relaxed coversation, would be
> particularly valuable.

> But, Norm, I have concluded that you are
> interested in a definitive, objective test
> that would yield a single number that would
> serve as a universally acknowledged index of
> skill. Much as the IQ test has been
> developed to yield a single number (g) which
> ranks intelligence.

> This will not be attainable without
> specification of game rules. Skill at any
> game depends partially on index mastery of
> that particular game.

> To standardize and express skills to a
> single numerical value a specific set of
> rules would need be agreed on for the
> standard test.

> I'd suggest old Vegas Strip rules,
> multideck.