charlie_t_jr: Heat or Paranoia?

[charlie_t_jr]

Hey All,

> Kind of interesting to read in the thread
> below, about the paranoia of the casinos and
> the lengths they may or may not go to to
> identify counters in the future. How about
> player paranoia?

> Just got back from a 3 day 2 night stay at my friendly local casinos. Things went really well. I'm a newbie to counting, a couple of months now.
> Using the KO count. I prefer DD, bet $5,
> spread 1-8. I've read several posts on heat.
> I've come across a few red chippers claiming
> heat, and invariably there's a sarcastic
> response to the effect that if your betting
> red you have nothing to worry about. Casinos
> could care less. But I have come across a
> few posts here and other places where red
> chippers say they have been asked not to
> play and asked to leave...

> So, here's what happened to me Friday
> evening at the casino I was staying at.
> Played BJ at other places, but this all took
> place where I was staying. Thursday night I
> get in, and play a late night, early morning
> session. Kind of long, couple of hours
> mabybe. Up a couple of bucks, DD, spreading
> 1-8, only parlaying the bet with count, not
> jumping. Friday morning play an hour, DD $5,
> trying to spread 1-8, but not really getting
> my top bet out because of the parlay...but
> leave up $185(very nice!). Go to another
> casino, come back for an hours play later
> that evening, different shift. Same game
> same spread, up $200(very, very nice!) While
> I was finishing up that session I noticed a
> new shift coming on to open up new tables,
> so I walked around for awhile, went to the
> romm, and come back half hour or so later to
> try out the new shift. Found an empty DD, so
> I buy in for $75, and get heads up play. The
> pit boss keeps hanging around the table,
> watching. I didn't think much about it
> because this pit wasn't yet busy. So I'm
> careful with my bet spread, no jumping. The
> count continues to rise up to KO 5, but I've
> only managed to get $30 up, and suddenly the
> dealer begins to shuffle. I'm thinking
> "I didn't see the cut card come out,
> we're heads up...how could I miss the cut
> card?". Now I know I'll be admonished
> for this, but I'm new at this on a limited
> bankroll, and I just couldn't stand leaving
> that bet up there. The pit boss is still
> hanging aroud, leaning on the unopened table
> next to mine. When he's not looking I pick
> up my chips and begin shuffling with them
> until the dealer is ready, and I put 1 down.
> I'm getting a bit uneasy now, but it seems
> the pit boss looks over to notice my first
> bet.

> During the next deal a married couple joins
> the table, the count begins to rise, I'm
> parlaying my bets...no jumping...pit critter
> still watching...I get $35 in the
> circle...the shuffle comes without seeing
> the shuffle card come out. Once again, I try
> to casually pick up my bet, and then put 1
> chip out when deal begins. The pit boss
> looks right at my bet, walks to the phone,
> picks it up and dials. Well I flat bet the
> next couple of hands, pick up my chips and
> check out...the pit boss comes over to check
> out my card and when he hands it to me, he
> comments, seemingly sarcasticly to me,
> "Thanks for playing MR Charlie_t_jr,
> goodluck and come back".

> Now I'm a red chipper...nobody's supposed to
> give a damn what I bet. Was I getting heat,
> or I'm I just a paranoid newbie reading too
> many website posts?

> Thanks
> Charlie_t_jr

[Norm Wattenberger]

The statement that you don't need to worry at all about heat while betting red is a bit strong. If you sense heat, leave if you want to play the same place in the near future.

[charlie_t_jr]

> The statement that you don't need to worry
> at all about heat while betting red is a bit
> strong. If you sense heat, leave if you want
> to play the same place in the near future.

I didn't say it...it's what I've read in the responses to posts made by other red players on this site and others. The responses seem to be sarcastic and condescending. That red chippers aren't worthy of casino attention. With that in mind, I was wondering if I was receiving heat or I was paraniod.

Once again, I'm new at this, trying to play smart. If I was receiving heat, did I handle the situation correctly? Was I pushing my luck playing as much as I did where I was staying?

Looking to learn...thanks for your response.
Charlie_t_jr

[Norm Wattenberger]

> I didn't say it...it's what I've read in the
> responses to posts made by other red players
> on this site and others. The responses seem
> to be sarcastic and condescending. That red
> chippers aren't worthy of casino attention.
> With that in mind, I was wondering if I was
> receiving heat or I was paraniod.

Understood. Like most sarcastic responses, they somewhat overstate the case. Particularly in smaller properties.

> Once again, I'm new at this, trying to play
> smart. If I was receiving heat, did I handle
> the situation correctly? Was I pushing my
> luck playing as much as I did where I was
> staying?

Most likely. Realize that your betting level is not the only aspect of interest to the pit. If you feel you've been pegged as a counter - move on.

BJStats

[charlie_t_jr]

> Most likely. Realize that your betting level
> is not the only aspect of interest to the
> pit. If you feel you've been pegged as a
> counter - move on.

Appreciate the comments Norm. I guess I was looking for someone to say "absolutely red players could be barred". I've been a bit confused from the differing and opposing views I've read concerning red players.

Thanks.

[Geoff Hall]

> Once again, I'm new at this, trying to play
> smart. If I was receiving heat, did I handle
> the situation correctly? Was I pushing my
> luck playing as much as I did where I was
> staying?

> Looking to learn...thanks for your response.
> Charlie_t_jr

I had a similar experience just spreading 5-30 (in a DD game) in a casino in Downtown Vegas, about 6/7 years ago. I just got up and left after about 1/2 hour as I was sure that the dealer was counting the cards with me.

Reducing your 'off the top' bet (twice), after a high count at the end of the previous shoe, can help to give you away, and may work out more costly in the long run.

For example, reducing from $30 to $5 off the top, in a DD game, will only cost you around 10 cents for a game with a house edge of about 0.4%. If this then entails an early 'shuffle up' at a count of, say, +5 (or approx 2% edge) then this will cost you about 60 cents and this all adds up at the end of a session.

Playing heads-up is ideal as you are receiving the maximum number of hands per hour but you have to remember that you are likely to be subjected to more scrutiny or, to put it another way, it is easier for the pit to monitor your style of play under those conditions.

Best regards

Geoff

http://ww.blackjackswitch.com

[Norm Wattenberger]

Sarcasm in posts has both general and specific sources. On the general side: Sarcasm is endemic to web forum posters simply as a result of anonymity. It?s like horn-honking. People will lean on their horns in a traffic jam knowing full well that it cannot improve the situation and irritates large numbers of people. But, the same people standing in a long line for the movie or at a grocery store are unlikely to shout at 90 decibels at the people in front them. The anonymity of the internet is much like the two tons of steal surrounding the horn-honker.

Specific to Blackjack: Full-time professional play requires an enormous investment in practice and entails alternating mind-numbing and gut-wrenching experiences. There is also a sense of loneliness as you cannot chat honestly about your experiences or knowledge as you play and are often living a masquerade. Some of those that invest the time and experience the life tend to look down on players at lower levels or non-fulltime players. Unjustified sarcasm is their outlet. (I say unjustified because sarcasm towards those that continually refuse to accept science is fully justified.)

You will also find a small number of people that poke fun at anyone and everyone that doesn?t share both their level of obsession and exact style. In particular there exists a handful of people that claim that they are the only real BJ players. They hope to harm other people to make up for a lack of self-esteem. This can be found in any field and should be simply ignored. A good website (IMHO) quickly curtails the attacks made by such.

Please pardon me for going off subject; but this is an ongoing problem that puts off many. And I certainly don?t mean to dissuade you from what can be a great avocation given a reasonable balance. You will find much value among the pockets of sarcasm.

norm

BJStats

[Hal Jordan]

Charlie,
Always take precautions with your play. I don't want to suggest that you camo to the point of losing money, but good habits as a red chipper can be expanded on as the stakes (and heat) become more prominent in your green chip days. It would be a shame to get barred, making a particular location more difficult to play, when you have not yet approached the green chip level. Casinos like to grab red chippers when possible, because most counters will become shaken and never grow up to become green or black chippers for the casino to worry about. Remember that although a casino will usually have larger fish to fry, they will fry the small fish if there is nothing else to eat.

Take care,
HJ

[charlie_t_jr]

Well put...thanks

[Dancer]

Hi Charlie,

About a month ago, I saw a red player barred at a LV strip hotel while I was playing the $100 table right next to him. I made a tidy profit as a comped guest while he lost $40 and got tossed. I know what the guy lost because he (stupidly) made a big deal about the barring and announced it to half the casino. Sure, the pit pays more attention to the big tables, and yes, you can probably be a bit more aggressive jumping bets and such, but don't be lulled into a false sense of security.

All my barrings (3), happened almost 20 years ago when I played solely red. In retrospect, I was probably very easy to spot -- although at the time, I would have sworn I was far too smooth for any mere casino employee to catch.

Counting cards is easy. Getting away with it while extracting respectable profits is tough.

Accurate play and steadfast avoidance of marginal games is essential. But the "soft" skills are what sets you apart. Hone your act, and come up with creative ways to avoid playing through bad counts. Master those two skills, and you'll have a long and profitable career.

[ET Fan]

> Appreciate the comments Norm. I guess I was
> looking for someone to say "absolutely
> red players could be barred". I've been
> a bit confused from the differing and
> opposing views I've read concerning red
> players.

Quoth ETF: "Absolutely red players could be barred."

I'll go even further: red chippers ARE barred and will CONTINUE to be barred, forever and ever, Amen.

That said, I continue to believe red chippers should lay down vitually zero playing cover other than playing through some (not all) negative counts with a minimum bet out. That's what I do, and it's worked for me for 16 years. For the record, I am very definitely a red chip player. I've never been barred, and I max out at $200 at TC = +10 if the rules are copacetic.

ETF

[Sun Runner]

As Norm said earlier " .. among the pockets of sarcasm" ..

.. you can find posts like this one.

Thats why I like it here.

SR

[Parker]

> Appreciate the comments Norm. I guess I was
> looking for someone to say "absolutely
> red players could be barred". I've been
> a bit confused from the differing and
> opposing views I've read concerning red
> players.

Absolutely, red players can be barred. You heard it here second.

One factor that has been largely ignored so far in this discussion is the casino itself. Tolerance for red chip players varies greatly from one casino to another.

In a large casino such as Bellagio or MGM, it is likely that red chip play will indeed be largely ignored, assuming that one can find a $5 table at all. Although even here heat is possible - keep reading.

However, if you are in a sawdust joint where "big action" is anything over a couple of red chips, everything changes. The pit watches the red players more closely, simply because there aren't any green or black players to watch.

Side question: Are there any casinos anywhere (or bars, for that matter) that still actually sprinkle sawdust on the floor? Just wondering.

Additionally, hard as it is to believe today, some pit critters seem to have learned everything they know about counters from watching Rainman. They seem to think that if they let a counter play for even a short time, he will use his awesome counting skills to parlay his meager buy-in into thousands of dollars.

If only it were true. :-)

Some joints just don't like skilled players, period. Demonstrate any knowledge of the game at all, and you're history, regardless of the stakes you are playing.

Finally, consider the scene I witnessed at a downtown Las Vegas casino a while back. A young player buys in at a single deck game on a slow Tuesday afternoon. He says nothing, waves off the cocktail waitress, staring intently at the cards. His bets rise and fall in lockstep with the count, going from $5 to $50.

It takes me about ten seconds to determine that he is counting, and it doesn't take the pit much longer. He is politely told, "Any game in the house except blackjack." As the pit critter returns from backing him off, she comments to no one in particular, "What does he think we are, stupid?"