JH: Penetration

[JH]

What exactly is penetration and why is it so important?

[Parker]

> What exactly is penetration and why is it so
> important?

Penetration is simply how deeply the dealer deals into the deck (or multi-deck pack) before shuffling. In most multi-deck games this is determined by the placement of a cut card.

Penetration is important for a number of reasons, the most important of which is that the better the penetration, the more often positive counts will be seen.

[Viktor Nacht]

> What exactly is penetration and why is it so
> important?

Apparantly someone's parents never gave them "the talk." - V

[suicyco maniac]

> What exactly is penetration and why is it so
> important?

The real truth about pen is that it will allow the casino to deal more rounds per hour with a lot less shuffle time thus earning a lot more money for the house each year. Any manager or floorman worth a crap should fully understand this and move the cut back. Even though it will probably scare the hell out of the average casino owner the profits at the end of the year should calm their nerves!! Any comments? SM

[ivy kid]

This is an often aired point, but I don't think it's so simple. If a manager or floorman decides to bring the cut card back to win more money from ploppies, card counters will descend on the casinos. The democratization of casino playing conditions (trackjack, newsletters) gives counters the heads up whenever a casino has better rules. Casino folk need to place the cut card such that the house wins a lot of money from ploppies without the threat of becomming fed on by counters. Current penetration levels, I imagine, might be adequate for that goal. If a casino started to half shoe every table, or whatnot, clearly that would be idiotic. But crappy penetration (say 70% or 75% on a shoe) would not hurt the house that much. Last time I played, the dealer was slow, talked to the players a lot, and lost focus often. If you are truly concerned about the casinos losing profits due to fewer hands being played, I would tell them focus on getting better dealers for the same crappy pay. I would probably not focus on the cut card, at least initially.

Hey Don, if I can come up with a good "guesstimate" of where casinos should place the cut card to maximize (winnings from ploppies - losses to card counters), will you get me a job?

[Student]

I thought the most important reason why penetration is important is because as you get closer to the end of the shoe, the more accurate the count becomes and more effective it is. Isn't this the basis behind the floating point advantage?

> Penetration is simply how deeply the dealer
> deals into the deck (or multi-deck pack)
> before shuffling. In most multi-deck games
> this is determined by the placement of a cut
> card.

> Penetration is important for a number of
> reasons, the most important of which is that
> the better the penetration, the more often
> positive counts will be seen.

[Parker]

> I thought the most important reason why
> penetration is important is because as you
> get closer to the end of the shoe, the more
> accurate the count becomes and more
> effective it is. Isn't this the basis behind
> the floating point advantage?

Yes. This is indeed a valid reason, and an important one. However, I don't think it is as important as the simple fact that, as penetration increases, the counter will see more positive counts.

[PunkEye]

> Penetration is simply how deeply the dealer
> deals into the deck (or multi-deck pack)
> before shuffling. In most multi-deck games
> this is determined by the placement of a cut
> card.

> Penetration is important for a number of
> reasons, the most important of which is that
> the better the penetration, the more often
> positive counts will be seen.

Damn! And I thought it was because those positive counts tend to be more articulated.

[suicyco maniac]

[ivy kid]

SM - I am just on the side of rationality. It's not rational for us to expect a) that floor managers, out of kindness, will give us great games to play or b) that casinos will not or should not care about entirely maximizing their profits.

All kinds of conflict are difficult and complex almost singularly because neither side can put their metaphorical feet in the other side's shoes. Running around and cursing out bosses and casinos is not going to do good for counters - in fact, that will increase the tension and act as stimuli for the casinos to make conditions worse. Card counters aren't exactly organized into a governing body... but if they were, I think the first thing they should do is sit down with the casinos, shake hands, and recognize the casino's need to earn profits. Card counters should ask, in return, for the casinos to recognize card counters rights to play the game. This kind of reconciliation is probably impossible, but without it, surveilence is going to get more intense, counters will get craftier, and the tensions and the problems will just get worse.

> This is an often aired point, but I don't
> think it's so simple. If a manager or
> floorman decides to bring the cut card back
> to win more money from ploppies, card
> counters will descend on the casinos. The
> democratization of casino playing conditions
> (trackjack, newsletters) gives counters the
> heads up whenever a casino has better rules.
> Casino folk need to place the cut card such
> that the house wins a lot of money from
> ploppies without the threat of becomming fed
> on by counters. Current penetration levels,
> I imagine, might be adequate for that goal.
> If a casino started to half shoe every
> table, or whatnot, clearly that would be
> idiotic. But crappy penetration (say 70% or
> 75% on a shoe) would not hurt the house that
> much. Last time I played, the dealer was
> slow, talked to the players a lot, and lost
> focus often. If you are truly concerned
> about the casinos losing profits due to
> fewer hands being played, I would tell them
> focus on getting better dealers for the same
> crappy pay. I would probably not focus on
> the cut card, at least initially.

> Hey Don, if I can come up with a good
> "guesstimate" of where casinos
> should place the cut card to maximize
> (winnings from ploppies - losses to card
> counters), will you get me a job?

[Magician]

> I thought the most important reason why
> penetration is important is because as you
> get closer to the end of the shoe, the more
> accurate the count becomes and more
> effective it is. Isn't this the basis behind
> the floating point advantage?

Hmmm, don't linear count systems actually become less accurate (as predictors of player advantage) towards the end of the shoe? It's easy to find small subsets that are actually highly advantageous or disadvantageous, even though a counting system would suggest otherwise.

[Brick]

and make billions of $$$. They have been in business for decades, so they must be doing something right.

Lets see,mathematics say if a casino deals more hands, they make more money.I know,but those damn card counters.

There is simply not enough pro card counters in society to keep up with the never ending "flow" of ploppies. Call them voodoo players,progressionist,hunchies,high rollers,small rollers or idiots, they are everywhere giving money away to casinos and out number the pro a 1000 to 1.

Kid> But crappy penetration (say 70% or
> 75% on a shoe) would not hurt the house that
> much. Last time I played, the dealer was
> slow, talked to the players a lot, and lost
> focus often. If you are truly concerned
> about the casinos losing profits due to
> fewer hands being played.>I would tell them
> focus on getting better dealers for the same
> crappy pay. I would probably not focus on
> the cut card, at least initially.

Who's truly concerned about casino profits? I'm more concerned about some casinos who are mismanaged and truly ignorant of blackjack. Therefore they tighten up their game and work in a sweaty atmosphere. This will even make the ploppies feel uncomfortable. "They act like they dont want me to win,let's get out of here!!"

You say; well, I would tell the casino to keep the crappy pen and just find some fast dealers who dont talk, so the casino can make more money.

Did it ever occur to you that dealers usually joke and ramble on while they are taking a break to shuffle? This is the time they get a slight rest in action and relax a bit. Another note of interest to you; Every time a dealer SHUFFLES it gives the ploppies a chance to consider bailing out of the game.

Bad pen does not sound like a very profitable casino tactic kid,does it?

> Hey Don, if I can come up with a good
> "guesstimate" of where casinos
> should place the cut card to maximize
> (winnings from ploppies - losses to card
> counters), will you get me a job?

If this your main concern kid,then I can tell you casinos that deal better than 70-75% certainly make Millions$$$ and been in business for decades.

[ysuicyco maniac]

I know I was just hoping that some manager somewhere might read it aand be willing t improve his game for both us and him of course amy manager worth anything would spot most of us fairly quick unless we are laying down heavy cover I just think it would end up beter for everyone if they dealt a good game.

> SM - I am just on the side of rationality.
> It's not rational for us to expect a) that
> floor managers, out of kindness, will give
> us great games to play or b) that casinos
> will not or should not care about entirely
> maximizing their profits.

> All kinds of conflict are difficult and
> complex almost singularly because neither
> side can put their metaphorical feet in the
> other side's shoes. Running around and
> cursing out bosses and casinos is not going
> to do good for counters - in fact, that will
> increase the tension and act as stimuli for
> the casinos to make conditions worse. Card
> counters aren't exactly organized into a
> governing body... but if they were, I think
> the first thing they should do is sit down
> with the casinos, shake hands, and recognize
> the casino's need to earn profits. Card
> counters should ask, in return, for the
> casinos to recognize card counters rights to
> play the game. This kind of reconciliation
> is probably impossible, but without it,
> surveilence is going to get more intense,
> counters will get craftier, and the tensions
> and the problems will just get worse.