ivy senior: Ploppies

[ivy senior]

Played at a Northeast casino for a few hours today... and I couldn't believe the ignorance of the players, dealers, bosses, etc. Heard such wisdom as "never double against a face!" "You took my card ... you took the dealer's bust card," and "the dealer makes a pat hand 90 percent of the time when none of the players take a hit..." Talk about selective memory! Everyone rememebers when the dealer shows the 6 on a negative count, no one hits, and bam, dealer gets 21. No players doubled soft hands, few doubled 11s, 10s and 9s properly, understood splits, etc. It's too bad such foolish activity occurs, but at the same time, I wonder if advanced players thrive on the idiots. Without ploppies giving away 3 percent, casinos might not tolerate perfect BS players, nonetheless counters with any size bankrolls. Yes, counters will win money from the big casinos - but it's money that once belonged to the guy who split 6s against the dealer's 9.

I wonder about education and have a question for you all. Should (is there a responsibiity for) BJ math scholars and counters to educate common gamblers about BJ truths, or quite the opposite: should we keep our "secrets" to ourselves lest people don't begin playing well that casinos must adopt even worse BJ rules? The issue isn't black and white, so please elaborate on proper middle grounds, if any.

[Mr. Ed]

> I wonder about education and have a question
> for you all. Should (is there a
> responsibiity for) BJ math scholars and
> counters to educate common gamblers about BJ
> truths, or quite the opposite: should we
> keep our "secrets" to ourselves
> lest people don't begin playing well that
> casinos must adopt even worse BJ rules? The
> issue isn't black and white, so please
> elaborate on proper middle grounds, if any.

DON'T educate people at the table!
- You'll blow your cover.
- You'll get blamed if they lose. (Try telling a ploppy to split 88v10 !?!)

DO share as much knowlege as you can on forums like this one.

Otherwise, do whatever you want! Personally, I love to talk about blackjack! But it's up to you - you don't have a responsibility to enlighten the world, but I have found that discussing blackjack with others usually ends up helping me. Don't worry about improving the quality of other's playing to the point it erodes the rules. Really! You give yourself too much credit!

But really, if you ask this question on this forum you WILL get a BIASED answer - most posters on this forum, by definition, LIKE to share information and think it is a GOOD IDEA.

But ploppies still amaze me. I guess the whole concept of gambling amazes me. Don't ploppies wonder where all the casino's money comes from? Does a ploppy think that God will smile on them and let them win while everyone else will just lose?

Maybe there really are just a lot of incredibly wealthy people out there who really don't mind and can easily afford spending a couple hundred bucks on a night of entertainment? I doubt it, but maybe I'm just naive.

[Igor]

[Parker]

> I wonder if advanced players
> thrive on the idiots. Without ploppies
> giving away 3 percent, casinos might not
> tolerate perfect BS players, nonetheless
> counters with any size bankrolls. Yes,
> counters will win money from the big casinos
> - but it's money that once belonged to the
> guy who split 6s against the dealer's 9.

Absolutely right. Our money comes from the "fish" (ploppies) just like in poker. Only difference is, the casinos act as middleman.

And they don't like that. :-)

> I wonder about education and have a question
> for you all. Should (is there a
> responsibiity for) BJ math scholars and
> counters to educate common gamblers about BJ
> truths, or quite the opposite: should we
> keep our "secrets" to ourselves
> lest people don't begin playing well that
> casinos must adopt even worse BJ rules? The
> issue isn't black and white, so please
> elaborate on proper middle grounds, if any.

I believe in education for those that desire to be educated. Fortunately (for us, anyway), many of those using the "strategies" that you mention above are thoroughly convinced that they are right and all the books are wrong.

It's sort of like the old saying about trying to teach a pig to dance. Not only will you not succeed, it annoys the hell out of the pig.

I rarely give advice at the table, preferring to respond simply with a shrug.

[whatever]

Ploppies make for great cover. act like the ploppies at your table. When they get all worked up, parley ther bets, and create chaos no one in the pit notices my bet spreads. The eye may, but there are cover plays for that, too. and another poster is right, if the ploppies give ther money to the house and we take it, the casino hold is still good.

[jim]

> Played at a Northeast casino for a few hours
> today... and I couldn't believe the
> ignorance of the players, dealers, bosses,
> etc. Heard such wisdom as "never double
> against a face!" "You took my card
> ... you took the dealer's bust card,"
> and "the dealer makes a pat hand 90
> percent of the time when none of the players
> take a hit..." Talk about selective
> memory! Everyone rememebers when the dealer
> shows the 6 on a negative count, no one
> hits, and bam, dealer gets 21. No players
> doubled soft hands, few doubled 11s, 10s and
> 9s properly, understood splits, etc. It's
> too bad such foolish activity occurs, but at
> the same time, I wonder if advanced players
> thrive on the idiots. Without ploppies
> giving away 3 percent, casinos might not
> tolerate perfect BS players, nonetheless
> counters with any size bankrolls. Yes,
> counters will win money from the big casinos
> - but it's money that once belonged to the
> guy who split 6s against the dealer's 9.

> I wonder about education and have a question
> for you all. Should (is there a
> responsibiity for) BJ math scholars and
> counters to educate common gamblers about BJ
> truths, or quite the opposite: should we
> keep our "secrets" to ourselves
> lest people don't begin playing well that
> casinos must adopt even worse BJ rules? The
> issue isn't black and white, so please
> elaborate on proper middle grounds, if any.

the most aggrivating thing for me is, as these people lose more and more they become more and more frusterated and started blaming everything and everybody but themselves. i end up leaving the table sometimes b/c i'm afraid i'll end cussing them out and making a scene.

[Geoff Hall]

> I wonder about education and have a question
> for you all. Should (is there a
> responsibiity for) BJ math scholars and
> counters to educate common gamblers about BJ
> truths, or quite the opposite: should we
> keep our "secrets" to ourselves
> lest people don't begin playing well that
> casinos must adopt even worse BJ rules? The
> issue isn't black and white, so please
> elaborate on proper middle grounds, if any.

Unfortunately, average gamblers seem to have a strange mentality when it comes to advice. For example, there are a lot of Chinese Blackjack players where I come from and considering that they have a reputation for being an intelligent race, they seem to leave their brains behind them when they walk into a casino. Actually, most of them resort to trying to use some sort of E.S.P to guess the next card in Blackjack (they always seem to think a face card is coming). Of course they are right 30% of the time.

To take this further then I will relate a true story that happened about 7 or 8 years ago, when I was earning a living from professional gambling :-

While I was playing in a local casino I met a guy and we became quite friendly. He was well treated by the casino and often seemed quite proud that he could eat at anytime he wanted for free (I use the term 'free' very loosely for obvious reasons).

He had lost a lot of money playing both Blackjack and Roulette and as I got to know him I told him that next time he played to watch my bets and increase his bets accordingly. His strategy was reasonable but I told him that if he wanted to win then he had a lot more chance of doing this if he follwed me.

The first night that we sat together he followed my advice and kept his bets smaller than usual (around $10-$20), maybe doubling up now and again. Then we hit a high count and I increased my bets. Again he followed accordingly and upped his stakes to around $70-$80 and we did OK, as far as I remember, although we didn't show a huge gain.

Then we hit a quiet patch and I didn't increase my bets for the next few shoes. However, once he had got a taste of winning a few big bets he just couldn't resist having another go. Before I knew it he was back to his usual style of upping his bets, despite me having my minimum out. Basically, he didn't have the patience as IMOH he was there to gamble and he wanted action. This didn't involve sitting around for an hour placing minimum bets - there was not enough adrenalin involved using my method.

Although not everybody is the same, I believe that a lot of gamblers fall into this trap of being addicted to this adrenalin rush. In fact, a leading poker player once stated that the aggression that is used advantageously by players in a poker tournament (i.e. the good, aggressive players) also have that same trait, which now becomes destructive, when it comes to casino games.

An excellent poker player I know, who is doing extremely well at the moment, in the USA, has fallen into this trap. I've seen him do it and have also heard that despite winning $250,000 in a recent series of poker tournaments, he came back with next to nothing because he couldn't keep away from the Blackjack tables.

When an obnoxious gambler is moaning at the dealers then they are told 'Just remember it's guys like this that pay your wages'. I believe that you should think the same way next time a ploppy tells you that splitting 9's verses a 6 is a ridiculous move as you already have a hand :-)

Best regards

Geoff

[hilo fan]

Lets say the the average player played perfect basic strategy and that the number of counters equaled the number of ploppies. The game is 6D S17, DAS. There is a full table. Assume that the average player bets $25 per hand and manages to play 60 hands per hour. Lets do the math:

60(25)7= 10 500

This is the total amount that the players will wager combined. The house edge versus the basic strategist is .4%. The house will make $42 per hour from the table. It would be a little more than enough to pay the wages of two employees. The house would offer no comps. There is no way that the casino could offer blackjack as the only game in their casino and make money. They would lose money because they would not only not be able to profit, but they could not even pay their employees, upper management, overhead expenses such as security, lighting and survelliance. The next time that you help a ploppy make the right play think about what you are doing.

[Igor]

[Moose]

Where is the problem with the uneducated and weak giving it up to the intelligent and strong? The large majority of people have absolutely no ability to calculate properly when uncertainty is involved - as evinced by the massive amount of money "spent" yearly on extended warranties, "one-shot" flight insurance and so forth. The casino world is just the most honest and obvious exploitation of that weakness.

As disgusting as patent stupidity is to me, and how quickly I would strike it from the face of the earth if given the chance, the fact is that it is there, and there should be no shame in the strong making money off the weak through said stupidity.

.. which is not to say that I never feel any shame, but I don't think I, or anyone, should. Make sense?

M.

[Waters]

If the count is high, TELL THEM TO STAND! Those are *my* tens in that deck, keep away from them!

If the count is low, TELL THEM TO SPLIT! Hit that 17, the next card is a 4, I can feel it!

hehehe. just blowing off steam! =)

[Waters]

Does that make us evil? Maybe we should be spending our time and effort educating the public -- not feeding off of their idiocy?

No, I think not (entirely). I think we should be doing both. I would be much happier if the guy behind the counter at the local burger joint understood that his job was customer service, if doctors were never superstitious, if CEOs did not believe that intuition was more important than facts and analysis. But until that happens, I will continue to profit from their foolishness as best as I can. =)

[Sun Runner]

> Where is the problem with the uneducated and
> weak giving it up to the intelligent and
> strong?

> the fact is that it is there, and there should
> be no shame in the strong making money off
> the weak through said stupidity.

I do believe we are our brothers keeper.

At the same time we do live in a free society.

I just won't knowingly give bad advice to a ploppie if given the opportunity. I'll just hope he quits before he loses his house payment.

SR