Nick: K-O Vs Hi-Lo

[Nick]

Alright, what is the biggest differences between K-O and Hi-Lo? Has one been actually proven to be better than another? I just wanted to get peoples facts and opinions based on experience on these two systems. Thanks.

[jac]

Generally speaking the pros use hi-lo, the newbies use KO. If I'm having a chat with a card counter who say they use KO, my opinion of them is someone who has not been around the blackjack tables very long. However to my surprise KO wins at a much higher rate than the Revere Point Count level 2 system when used against the shoe(H17DAS). It's suppose to be something about the Hit 17 stuff that makes this happen. It is also said that KO is as good as the halves 3 level count at H17. Since almost all shoe games are H17DAS. Then not only is KO better than hi-lo but better than any balanced count system!

jac

[Slowhand]

The basic difference is that KO is an unbalanced count, and HiLo requires True Count conversion. I believe KO tends to be less accurate as the advantage rises. Some of the gurus out there can better help you, I am sure.
Good Luck
Slowhand

> Alright, what is the biggest differences
> between K-O and Hi-Lo? Has one been actually
> proven to be better than another? I just
> wanted to get peoples facts and opinions
> based on experience on these two systems.
> Thanks.

[John Auston]

> The basic difference is that KO is an
> unbalanced count, and HiLo requires True
> Count conversion. I believe KO tends to be
> less accurate as the advantage rises.

Best to think of KO as having a "sweet spot" of accuracy at a hi-lo true count of +4, and it is "less accurate" as you deviate in either direction.

The reason that KO is so powerful is that that is a pretty good place to be very accurate at, since it represents close to max bet. So if KO were reporting a, say, +7, but the count was "really" +6 or +8 - so what? Still max bet and high count departures.

On the other end of the scale, KO may "miss" some of the situations of low positive EV, but this has little impact as bets are relatively low there anyway.

- John Auston

BJRM 2002 Bug Fixes

[Parker]

> Alright, what is the biggest differences
> between K-O and Hi-Lo? Has one been actually
> proven to be better than another? I just
> wanted to get peoples facts and opinions
> based on experience on these two systems.
> Thanks.

As others have pointed out, the primary difference is that KO is an unbalanced count that is used in running count mode. This means that no true count conversion is required, making it extremely simple to use.

In addition, the "KO Preferred" system uses a reduced, rounded strategy matrix that ties all deviations from basic strategy to one of only three numbers, making it even easier to learn and use.

Extensive simulations have shown that Hi-lo will edge out KO by a small margin in some game situations, and KO will beat Hi-lo by an equally tiny margin in others. In no case is the difference significant.

You can find a detailed comparison of KO, Hi-lo and other counting systems in Blackjack Attack, 2nd Edition, by Don Schlesinger.

A few people have taken a violent dislike to KO. I don't know why - perhaps they have difficulty accepting that something this simple actually works as well as it does. Or perhaps they feel that they have wasted their time learning a level four system with two side counts and 200 indices.

Or perhaps it is because one of the developers of KO is now working for a company that develops casino games, thereby somehow making the system suspect. Some have even suggested some sort of giant conspiracy to foist an inferior counting system on the public so the casinos can more easily get their money. These people also believe that they have been abducted by aliens.

[Parker]

> Generally speaking the pros use hi-lo, the
> newbies use KO.

There are a huge number of players who do not fall under the category of "pro" or "newbie" and many of them use KO.

I am personally aware of at least one pro who uses KO, and there are a large number of experienced, serious part time players who find that KO delivers the money with minimal expenditure of effort.

I personally used KO for several years, long after I had ceased to be a "newbie." One KO user I know has recently written a book about blackjack.

The truth is, unless one is playing several hours or more a week at black chip levels or above, the choice of counting system is not going to make any significant difference in one's earnings, especially if the choice is between two level one systems.

[John Auston]

> However to
> my surprise KO wins at a much higher rate
> than the Revere Point Count level 2 system
> when used against the shoe(H17DAS). It's
> suppose to be something about the Hit 17
> stuff that makes this happen. It is also
> said that KO is as good as the halves 3
> level count at H17. Since almost all shoe
> games are H17DAS. Then not only is KO better
> than hi-lo but better than any balanced
> count system!

Come on. Stop spreading that nonsense. You know very well (because I myself told you many times) that those sims you are using as the basis for your statements were completely "unscientific" - for the purposes of system-vs-system comparison.
They used different indices, for one thing, and that can (and did) make most all the difference.
If you post that nonsense again, I will have to assume you are doing it to willfully mislead, in which case "shame on you".

- John Auston

[Don Schlesinger]

"However to my surprise KO wins at a much higher rate than the Revere Point Count level 2 system when used against the shoe(H17DAS)."

Where would you get this from?? It certainly isn't true.

Don

[John Auston]

> "However to my surprise KO wins at a
> much higher rate than the Revere Point Count
> level 2 system when used against the
> shoe(H17DAS)."

> Where would you get this from?? It certainly
> isn't true.

"jac" is most likely "just a counter", from the thread way below. He either has not understood that thread (in which case it would be best he not say anything about the subject matter) or he has understood it, but is misleading folks)in which case it would be best he not say anything about the subject matter). The subject matter was the different sims in BJRM, remember?

John

[Nick]

THank you all for the advice, I appreciate it very much. So, from my understanding, they both have about the same turnout and K-O is significantly easier?? I can play RPC but want something easier so I don't have to spend as much time practicing and learning, which is why I am asked this question and I couldn't decide between K-O and Hi-Lo. I appreciated the help! Thanks.

[Nick]

Parker, I was wondering if this isn't too personal of a question, but you said you used K-O for awhile? What did you think and did you make a lot of money off of it? THanks.

[Chris]

> As others have pointed out, the primary
> difference is that KO is an unbalanced count
> that is used in running count mode. This
> means that no true count conversion is
> required, making it extremely simple to use.

I have read professional blakcjack and am very familiar with the hi-lo count. I have never read KO blackjack. Could you or someone else explain exactly how the KO counting method works without a TC conversion? I consider my ability to effectively count cards extremely impaired by not being able to discern how many decks of cards are in a discard pile. Does the KO count have you do something else to take into account the number of decks remaining, or does this count not depend on the number of decks reaminaing? How is that even possible?

[Norm Wattenberger]

As John says, obviously you are not correct in your comparison of RPC and KO. RPC is clearly superior, including shoe H17 should you be forced under gunpoint to play such a game. I also can?t agree that you can know anything about a player simply because he uses KO.

Having said that, there does exist a problem for some people in selecting KO. If you intend at some point in the future in taking up shuffle-tracking, then unbalanced strategies are not the correct choice.